Tholian web Q.

[Miss Mess]

In 'The Tholian Web' do Spock & Mccoy actually listen to the captains last orders? If so, why would they deny doing so to Jim, at the end of the episode? I only ask because apparently the personal opinion of the writer of the new Star Trek non-fiction book- Star Trek: The original series 365- is that they never actually ended up hearing his orders...although i always believed that the recorded message Kirk left for both of them- and that they listened to in the episode- DID contain his 'last orders'

Opinions?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I suppose whether they listened to any "orders" in the strict sense would be a matter of interpretation. However, they listened to Kirk's last message and it was clear in the episode that their denial at the end was in the nature of a friendly conspiracy to pretend that they hadn't.

This is a lovely episode in most ways, one of the two or three worthwhile shows in the third season.

 

[Botany Bay]

They watched his last orders, but, not wanting to admit to Jim that they'd given him up for dead, they lied to him.

That's how I saw it.

 

[Miss Mess]

I suppose whether they listened to any "orders" in the strict sense would be a matter of interpretation. However, they listened to Kirk's last message and it was clear in the episode that their denial at the end was in the nature of a friendly conspiracy to pretend that they hadn't.

This is a lovely episode in most ways, one of the two or three worthwhile shows in the third season.

A 'friendly conspiracy'? Between Mccoy & Spock?

 

[Timo]

It's also clear that Kirk knew he was being had. His inflections when he says "I hope we won't have similar opportunities to test those orders which you, umm, never heard" are rather obvious...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Miss Mess]

They watched his last orders, but, not wanting to admit to Jim that they'd given him up for dead, they lied to him.

That's how I saw it.

But the entire crew were aware of the fact that Jim was officially anounced dead, by Spock, therefore Jim, on returning to the enterprise also would have eventually learned the truth: that they had- at least officially- given up. Could they have forgotton to actually watch his proper last orders as a result of distraction? Both Jim & the boys knew that it was a starfleet duty, not simply a courtesy, to hear the captains last orders, so i can't see why Kirk would be hurt...

 

[Timo]

Indeed, I'd think they only lied because it helped them continue their absurd joke about them "getting along" (as if!).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Miss Mess]

It's also clear that Kirk knew he was being had. His inflections when he says "I hope we won't have similar opportunities to test those orders which you, umm, never heard" are rather obvious...

Timo Saloniemi

Really? maybe i need to rewatch the episode...but i always thought he sounded a little hurt when he said that line, i assume, due to the fact that Spock & Kirk didn't deem it necessary to hear his last orders...or something.

 

[Timo]

Sure he would have been hurt at the thought - but he'd quickly have realized his leg was being pulled. Else why formulate that sentence that way, refer to "those orders you never heard"? The phrase just doesn't work, except as mockery.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Miss Mess]

Sure he would have been hurt at the thought - but he'd quickly have realized his leg was being pulled. Else why formulate that sentence that way, refer to "those orders you never heard"? The phrase just doesn't work, except as mockery.

Timo Saloniemi

If it was meant as mockery he would have smiled, or something, to make it obvious to us that he didnt believe them. And why would he be disinclined to believe them in the first place, since it is unquestionably an odd thing for them to do. Even if they knew what they were up to Kirk would still be thinking...'that's weird...but why would they lie?'

Tho i'm sure he would've figured it out eventually, Kirk being the smart guy he is.

 

[Botany Bay]

Hey MM, sorry to take your thread a bit off track, but are you watching Season 3 on Blu-Ray?

 

[Miss Mess]

Hey MM, sorry to take your thread a bit off track, but are you watching Season 3 on Blu-Ray?

No...i havnt seen anything in Blu-Ray yet actually. How come?

 

[Botany Bay]

In Australia they released Seasons 1 and 2 on Blu Ray before last Christmas.

I (stupidly) went and sold all my old TOS DVD's (including Season 3), thinking that the whole series would be quickly released on Blu Ray - but no sign of Season 3, nearly a year since Season 2 was released.

I thought you might have found it somewhere...I'm starting to miss not having season 3...god help me.

 

[Miss Mess]

In Australia they released Seasons 1 and 2 on Blu Ray before last Christmas.

I (stupidly) went and sold all my old TOS DVD's (including Season 3), thinking that the whole series would be quickly released on Blu Ray - but no sign of Season 3, nearly a year since Season 2 was released.

I thought you might have found it somewhere...I'm starting to miss not having season 3...god help me.

Oh no! Well i don't have a Blu-Ray player so i just bought the remastered dvd versions. I also bought the remastered films, which have parts missing from them- I have recently discovered- so am now having a bit of an anxiety attack over wether or not I should now go out and buy the original, uncut versions.
Deary me...the work of a dedicated fan is never done lol

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I suppose whether they listened to any "orders" in the strict sense would be a matter of interpretation. However, they listened to Kirk's last message and it was clear in the episode that their denial at the end was in the nature of a friendly conspiracy to pretend that they hadn't.

This is a lovely episode in most ways, one of the two or three worthwhile shows in the third season.

A 'friendly conspiracy'? Between Mccoy & Spock?

Yeah, and I thought that was one of the charming things about the story - the two of them beginning to have a somewhat more relaxed attitude toward one another.

It's also clear that Kirk knew he was being had. His inflections when he says "I hope we won't have similar opportunities to test those orders which you, umm, never heard" are rather obvious...

Timo Saloniemi

Really? maybe i need to rewatch the episode...but i always thought he sounded a little hurt when he said that line, i assume, due to the fact that Spock & Kirk didn't deem it necessary to hear his last orders...or something.

I thought he was a little confused - couldn't believe they hadn't listened to the tape but at the same time couldn't believe they'd have this little "friendly conspiracy" between them either.

 

[Mr Darcy]

I also bought the remastered films, which have parts missing from them- I have recently discovered- so am now having a bit of an anxiety attack over wether or not I should now go out and buy the original, uncut versions.

The remastered versions of the movies, which were released in 2009, are the original theatrical cuts.

Additional material was added later for the home video / DVD releases. (Not to mention the ABC TV cut of TWOK)

 

[A beaker full of death]

apparently the personal opinion of the writer of the new Star Trek non-fiction book- Star Trek: The original series 365- is that they never actually ended up hearing his orders...

How does anyone that astonishingly stupid get a book published?
You'd think he'd at least have a clue as to the matter he's writing about.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Sure he would have been hurt at the thought - but he'd quickly have realized his leg was being pulled. Else why formulate that sentence that way, refer to "those orders you never heard"? The phrase just doesn't work, except as mockery.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't hear it that way at all. Just the contrary, his big final voice from the grave, his big moment, was brushed off; they did just fine without him, and he feels like a dunsel.

 

[Hofner]

Sure he would have been hurt at the thought - but he'd quickly have realized his leg was being pulled. Else why formulate that sentence that way, refer to "those orders you never heard"? The phrase just doesn't work, except as mockery.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't hear it that way at all. Just the contrary, his big final voice from the grave, his big moment, was brushed off; they did just fine without him, and he feels like a dunsel.

Right or wrong, there's another aspect I got from this scene.

Aside from denying they listened to his last message, Spock and McCoy are telling Kirk that in his absence they got along beautifully and he knows them better than that. To exaggerate, they're telling him a whopper that makes you choke and spit out your food.

Robert

 

[paulablock]

apparently the personal opinion of the writer of the new Star Trek non-fiction book- Star Trek: The original series 365- is that they never actually ended up hearing his orders...

How does anyone that astonishingly stupid get a book published?
You'd think he'd at least have a clue as to the matter he's writing about.

Okay, not that I want to get into a row or anything, but I do have a clue and I can't stand being misquoted. I believe Miss Mess has read the page in question a little too quickly. It's on spread 296 and it opens with a quote from McCoy:
"The captain's last order is top priority and you will honor that order before you take over."
Below that, it says:
"They listened to it--but they wouldn't admit to Kirk that they listened to it. And Spock outright lied about it, despite his frequent admonition that Vulcans don't lie.
"Nevertheless, it's a fine final speech, and whether his best friends owned up to having heard it or not, it's worthy of remembrance."
The page then goes on to quote Kirk's last order in verbatim.

Okie dokie?