"That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do, no explanation is necessary."
Things we only realized later about DS9
- Thread starter Laura Cynthia Chambers
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"That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do, no explanation is necessary."
I know. But at least she has shown to be understanding of decisions about the Prophets of those who aren't Bajoran, like when Jake told Bashireling to perform the surgery in "RAPTURE". She actually sided with him when Kai Winn was lamenting that Jake should have 'trusted the Prophets'.
“That’s the thing about faith. If you don’t have it you can’t understand; and if you do, no explanation is necessary.”
-Kira Nerys
(or something like that)
-Kira Nerys
(or something like that)
Faith does not necessarily mean blind compliance. The same figure at the center of the Binding of Isaac also argued for mercy for the peoples of Sodom and Gemorrah. His wife laughed at G-d numerous times. At the center of the law that his descendants would follow is "the Law is not in heaven," that they have the ability to interpret and modify it. The episode could have taken numerous directions, but decided on one in which Benjamin Sisko had only blind faith--not just in the righteousness of the Prophets, but that their intervention would produce the just results. Conversely, the Benjamin Sisko was more in line with Abraham in Sacrifice of Angels: you have responsibilities to the people who worship you, and whom you encourage to worship you. Be merciful on them. The writers could have explored Sisko's faith and his dedication to the Prophets without embracing a singular interpretation of what faith means. He could have interpreted faith in a way that allowed him to preserve his dedication to his adult son, rather than surrender him to an unassured fate.
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First I apologize for repeating Kira’s quote; I didn’t see it posted above.
Looking back on the episode it seems odd to me that in the future the people of earth have abandoned the idea of God in favour of science, and yet Sisko treats the wormhole aliens as gods.
Looking back on the episode it seems odd to me that in the future the people of earth have abandoned the idea of God in favour of science, and yet Sisko treats the wormhole aliens as gods.
Jake "[...] all this stuff about the Celestial Temple in the wormhole. It's dumb."
Ben "No, it's not. You've got to realise something, Jake. For over fifty years, the one thing that allowed the Bajorans to survive the Cardassian occupation was their faith. The Prophets were their only source of hope and courage."
Jake "But there were no Prophets. They were just some aliens that you found in the wormhole."
Ben "To those aliens, the future is no more difficult to see than the past. Why shouldn't they be considered Prophets?"
Jake "Are you serious?"
Ben "My point is, it's a matter of interpretation. It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong. If you start to think that way, you'll be acting just like Vedek Winn, Only from the other side. We can't afford to think that way, Jake. We'd lose everything we've worked for here."
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Sisko didn't start out thinking of the wormhole aliens as gods. He was pushed into the view that they were gods was just as valid a way of looking at them as that they were wormhole aliens.
Reminds me of Weyoun's speech from Treacher, Faith, and the Great River (quoted from http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/556.htm):
Reminds me of Weyoun's speech from Treacher, Faith, and the Great River (quoted from http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/556.htm):
Well, in that respect DS9 is more the odd one out. Most of Trek seems based on secular humanism. DS9 clearly has this, too, but also shows duality, and that the two world views can clash (e.g see the problem Winn (even though a hypocrite herself) and other orthodox Vedeks sometimes cause on the station) , but not necessarily so - see Sisko.
Because ultimately, whether Sisko has come to view the wormhole aliens as gods or still simply as extradimensional aliens who can perceive the fabric of time in a way we can't, doesn't matter. The bottom line is he trusts them enough to gamble his son's life on. (And the question as to whether that has any merit or not is a loaded debate which I'd rather not get into - see the centuries-old controversy around biblical stories such as the binding of Isaac, already referred to above.).
Here's some real irony...
My wife thinks the religious episodes and storylines are rather dull and is not really interested in them. And she has faith and is religious.
I have no faith and I absolutely detest religions as a whole, yet I find these storylines to be among the best parts of DS9. (Possibly because it's been shown multiple times how easily religion can be used to dupe people. See "COVENANT" and "THE RECKONING".) DS9 is really the only series that tackled the religion subject beyond casual mentions.
My wife thinks the religious episodes and storylines are rather dull and is not really interested in them. And she has faith and is religious.
I have no faith and I absolutely detest religions as a whole, yet I find these storylines to be among the best parts of DS9. (Possibly because it's been shown multiple times how easily religion can be used to dupe people. See "COVENANT" and "THE RECKONING".) DS9 is really the only series that tackled the religion subject beyond casual mentions.
Of course Sisko didn’t start out considering the wormhole aliens as gods (small g); but he does eventually consider them so.
What about Q? He could “claim” to be a god. Did he not have the power of life and death? Could he not travel anywhere and anytime? If you consider how many times he traveled through time, and other dimensions, could he not be considered omnipresent? Would he not know everything simply from experience? That would make him all- knowing, and as a consequence, all-seeing.
That is three out of the three qualifications to be a god.
What about Q? He could “claim” to be a god. Did he not have the power of life and death? Could he not travel anywhere and anytime? If you consider how many times he traveled through time, and other dimensions, could he not be considered omnipresent? Would he not know everything simply from experience? That would make him all- knowing, and as a consequence, all-seeing.
That is three out of the three qualifications to be a god.
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Q from "DEATH WISH" told Tuvok that the Q appear to them how a cave dwelling society would see Voyager and her crew. Basically, Arthur C. Clarke's Law.
It really makes you think about just exactly how many of the noncorporeal lifeforms ST has had are really godlike and which ones are simply magical technology.
It really makes you think about just exactly how many of the noncorporeal lifeforms ST has had are really godlike and which ones are simply magical technology.
Then again, maybe Q is just the trickster he appears to be….
Q is not all-knowing. He was surprised when Sisko punched him. Even though it didn't injure Q, it looked unpleasant, and if he was all-knowing he would have ducked.
And if he was all-knowing, why didn't he know that Vash was absolutely sick of him and wasn't going to change her mind about leaving no matter how much he grovelled or threatened or tried to manipulate her?
To be honest, he comes across as such.
More in general, the Q continuum in general (except perhaps Quinn) comes across as a 'young' species I think - a bunch of upstarts that haven't really been around at the god tier that long, arrogant, cocky, showing their newfound powers and bling bling around.
Species such as the Organians (as seen in TOS) or the Traveler seem make much more of an impression of being 'older' species.
Meeting real gods is not what Star Trek does. Organians from TOS might be the most powerful, able to change hundreds of thousands of objects on thousands of ships, both Federation and Klingon, simultaneously, all over the galaxy. But they are presented as very advanced noncorporeal life forms rather than gods, and they did not always know what was going to happen next.
I wonder if Trelane’s parents were Q, or some other non-corporeal entity
I doubt they were Q. They behaved far too responsibly and with too much considerion for weaker life forms.
(Yes, I know what Guinan said: 'Not all the Q are alike. Some are almost respectable.' But still.)
Other than Lucian in "The Magiks of Megas-Tu."
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