They wasted Benedict Cumberbatch in this movie. (SPOILER)

[Chekov's Gun]

unless you want to come off as a an[sic] ignorant, over-priveledged[sic] white person.

Well, I am a white person, socially privileged in that respect as you say, and certainly ignorant in many ways (although my spelling is pretty good).

None of which adds up to you having any kind of a point here, or to me being wrong in this instance. You simply went for the name-calling because you apparently can't argue your position reasonably.

"Brown-ish person?" Really? What kind of misinformation or sloppy ethnic stereotyping leads you to the completely inaccurate conclusion that "at least then they hired a brown-ish person" in the 60s?

The reasons I think it's silly to make a fuss about Khan's ethnicity at this point are as follows - and I've said this a number of times:

1. The character's background was not definitively established in his first appearence ("Space Seed"), though the actor was made-up in dark face;
2. The previous actor, Montalban, was a man of mainly European ancestry just like Cumberbatch;
3. No attempt was made to disguise Montalban's background in the character's second appearence (TWOK), nor was there any confirming reference there to the speculative ancestry alluded to in his first appearence.

So, okay, any flaws in my logic can be attributed to my being an ignorant privileged white guy - what's your excuse?

My problem with it is the fact that they actually brought Spock Prime into the mix, talking about his experiences with Khan. Are we supposed to buy that he would recognize this pasty British man?

They really should have just had him be one of the other augments. There was no benefit from him being Khan specifically.

 

[Nerys Myk]

unless you want to come off as a an[sic] ignorant, over-priveledged[sic] white person.

Well, I am a white person, socially privileged in that respect as you say, and certainly ignorant in many ways (although my spelling is pretty good).

None of which adds up to you having any kind of a point here, or to me being wrong in this instance. You simply went for the name-calling because you apparently can't argue your position reasonably.

"Brown-ish person?" Really? What kind of misinformation or sloppy ethnic stereotyping leads you to the completely inaccurate conclusion that "at least then they hired a brown-ish person" in the 60s?

The reasons I think it's silly to make a fuss about Khan's ethnicity at this point are as follows - and I've said this a number of times:

1. The character's background was not definitively established in his first appearence ("Space Seed"), though the actor was made-up in dark face;
2. The previous actor, Montalban, was a man of mainly European ancestry just like Cumberbatch;
3. No attempt was made to disguise Montalban's background in the character's second appearence (TWOK), nor was there any confirming reference there to the speculative ancestry alluded to in his first appearence.

So, okay, any flaws in my logic can be attributed to my being an ignorant privileged white guy - what's your excuse?

My problem with it is the fact that they actually brought Spock Prime into the mix, talking about his experiences with Khan. Are we supposed to buy that he would recognize this pasty British man?

They really should have just had him be one of the other augments. There was no benefit from him being Khan specifically.

Didn't have to. He recognized the name.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I feel like he was somewhat wasted, yes. Rewatching Space Seed last week I could see what a psychological badass Khan is, I don't think we got to see that to the same extent. We can deduce that because of how he foiled and used Marcus even as Marcus was using him and we see him spinning it with Kirk. However I think Cumberbatch would be excellent at this kind of psychological badassery and replacing some of the action sequences with more character laying scenes for Khan would have made the character stronger.

 

[JoeZhang]

My problem with it is the fact that they actually brought Spock Prime into the mix, talking about his experiences with Khan. Are we supposed to buy that he would recognize this pasty British man?
.

He has no problem with the Chris Pine version of Kirk, so why would this be any different?

 

[Therin of Andor]

If you are 70 or above you might get away with coloured but otherwise - no.

I said "coloured contact lenses". Nothing to do with ethnicity or skin complexion.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The mystery of who Cumberbatch was playing became too out of control and eventually overshadowed the movie.

Only on Trek Internet sites. My non-Star Trek friends who went to see the movie had no idea of the secrecy and yet enjoyed the movie and were pleased to recognize the character's name in the Big Reveal.

 

[JoeZhang]

If you are 70 or above you might get away with coloured but otherwise - no.

I said "coloured contact lenses". Nothing to do with ethnicity or skin complexion.

I know that - which is why my post wasn't to you.

 

[Belz...]

Cumberbatch is a great actor and did an excellent job with the role. The problem was with the secrecy. The mystery of who Cumberbatch was playing became too out of control and eventually overshadowed the movie.

But did that translate to the general viewer, or just the fandom ?

My problem with it is the fact that they actually brought Spock Prime into the mix, talking about his experiences with Khan. Are we supposed to buy that he would recognize this pasty British man?

It's a different actor. Seriously, why is Cumberbatch a problem but not Chris Pine, for you guys ?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

My problem with it is the fact that they actually brought Spock Prime into the mix, talking about his experiences with Khan. Are we supposed to buy that he would recognize this pasty British man?

Why wouldn't he?

He recognized Jams T. Kirk, who no longer looks anything like William Shatner.

For fictional purposes these characters look like they always did - to the characters in the movie, no doubt Montalban and Cumberbatch are the same guy.

It's a conceit for the sake of telling the story. Do you think Felix Leiter was supposed to be run through a secret CIA matter reconfiguring device between every James Bond movie?

If you "can't buy that," well...don't. There's nothing really wrong with it, though. I don't have any trouble at all accepting it.

 

[Shazam!]

Didn't have to. He recognized the name.

Yeah, that was my first thought; he didn't see him at all.

 

[JoeZhang]

It's a conceit for the sake of telling the story. Do you think Felix Leiter was supposed to be run through a secret CIA matter reconfiguring device between every James Bond movie?

YES it is the only thing that makes sense to me - and if you are so fucking clever, explain to me how James Bond looks different between films WITHOUT plastic sugary?

It's clear that... <someone hands piece of paper>

acting? what the fucking is this acting?

 

[Franklin]

Yeah, sad that their standards are lower than the show in the 60s, at least then they hired a brown-ish person. If the kind of systemic racism that allows one of the few visibly ethnic characters to be white washed doesn't affect you then you really really should not comment how it's sad that anyone notices his ethnicity unless you want to come off as a an ignorant, over-priveledged white person.

I'm sure Adm. B would be the first to admit to being both privileged and white, but let's refrain from uncalled-for insinuations of ignorance or racism. As for the actor originally hired to play the Khan role in "Space Seed," it's been pointed out more than once that both Montalban's parents were Spanish immigrants from Castile, and that a fair amount of Khan's "brown-ness" was applied in the make-up department before he stepped in front of the cameras.

Remember that, first of all, Star Trek is theater, and that the actor's first object is to portray a person, not an ethnicity. Remember second that everything we know about Khan's ethnicity is contained in two lines of vague supposition put into the mouth of (the dubiously-qualified) Marla McGiver:

From the northern India area, I'd guess.
Probably a Sikh.
​

In short, we know next to nothing, so kindly temper the outrage a little.

Dubiously-qualified. To be sure. Maybe it didn't happen on screen, but wouldn't she want to know why a Sikh would take a Muslim title/name? I would. It's got to be an interesting story. I honestly do wonder if giving him that title was deliberate or an error made by Gene Coon and Carey Wilbur.

For what it's worth, even with his skin darkened (sad they'd do that on a "progessive" show), Montalban looked no more like a Sikh (at least a traditional one with an unshaved beard and turbin) than Cumberbatch did.

 

[M'Sharak]

Yeah, sad that their standards are lower than the show in the 60s, at least then they hired a brown-ish person. If the kind of systemic racism that allows one of the few visibly ethnic characters to be white washed doesn't affect you then you really really should not comment how it's sad that anyone notices his ethnicity unless you want to come off as a an ignorant, over-priveledged white person.

I'm sure Adm. B would be the first to admit to being both privileged and white, but let's refrain from uncalled-for insinuations of ignorance or racism. As for the actor originally hired to play the Khan role in "Space Seed," it's been pointed out more than once that both Montalban's parents were Spanish immigrants from Castile, and that a fair amount of Khan's "brown-ness" was applied in the make-up department before he stepped in front of the cameras.

Remember that, first of all, Star Trek is theater, and that the actor's first object is to portray a person, not an ethnicity. Remember second that everything we know about Khan's ethnicity is contained in two lines of vague supposition put into the mouth of (the dubiously-qualified) Marla McGiver:

From the northern India area, I'd guess.
Probably a Sikh.
​

In short, we know next to nothing, so kindly temper the outrage a little.

Dubiously-qualified. To be sure. Maybe it didn't happen on screen, but wouldn't she want to know why a Sikh would take a Muslim title/name? I would. It's got to be an interesting story. I honestly do wonder if giving him that title was deliberate or an error made by Gene Coon and Carey Wilbur.

I don't know, but Sir Rhosis might have some idea about the story's original form and how that differed from the episode as aired. I suspect the main aim was to give the character an exotic quality, and it's entirely possible that the "Noonien Singh" name and "Probably a Sikh" were Roddenberry additions coming much later in the writing process, perhaps even after Coon & Wilbur's final draft of the teleplay was submitted.

For what it's worth, even with his skin darkened (sad they'd do that on a "progessive" show), Montalban looked no more like a Sikh (at least a traditional one with an unshaved beard and turbin) than Cumberbatch did.

I can't fault them for the darkened skin. It's still theater, and applying makeup to give Khan a more exotic appearance is really no different than what was done with Vina or dozens of TOS Klingons (or with Spock, for that matter.) I will agree that Montalban's Khan looks like no Sikh I've ever met*, but it's episodic television, produced on a tight schedule, and I doubt anyone had any idea that, more than 45 years after the fact, the physical appearance of any one character would still be under so much scrutiny (either directly or indirectly.)



* Disclaimer: Most of these were members of the Indian field hockey team, competing at the California Cup sometime during the mid-1980s, so rather than Khan's shiny gold jacket they wore sporting attire appropriate to the event (including the very important shin-guards) but all still had the Sikh's turban and unshorn hair and beard.

EDIT:

Just chased down Sir Rhosis' script review for "Space Seed". It looks like both "Khan" and "Sikh" were part of the script from early on, so it does seem as if they may have been going more for exoticism than cultural accuracy. If Khan wasn't a terribly convincing Sikh then, is it really so crucial that he be recognizable as an ethnic Punjabi now?

 

[Ryan8bit]

why is Cumberbatch a problem but not Chris Pine, for you guys ?

To me it's about degrees. Yeah, Pine looks different, but he's not as drastically different. And plus there's the whole issue of Montalban not even being exactly what they intended the character to be originally. On top of that the British white guy villain just feels cliche. They had a chance to not go that direction and they just played it safe.

 

[I am not Spock]

So you'd be cool with an Indian looking terrorist in a major feature film, in this day and age? Very un PC

 

[Sindatur]

Yeah, sad that their standards are lower than the show in the 60s, at least then they hired a brown-ish person. If the kind of systemic racism that allows one of the few visibly ethnic characters to be white washed doesn't affect you then you really really should not comment how it's sad that anyone notices his ethnicity unless you want to come off as a an ignorant, over-priveledged white person.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad movie and Benedict is great in it, but from what I understand they decided to make him Khan after they already cast him, and that was a monumentally bad and insensitive decision.

LOL. Montalban's brown-ness came from Makeup for the most part, he was not a darkly complected person.

Second, he is of hispanic Origin, not Indian origin.

Third, since India was a British Colony for so long, and is now so integrated with Britain culturally, you are way, way more likely to a Brit in India than you are to find an Hispanic in India.

Plus, since he's an augment, for all we know, they were all just a bunch of Eggs and Sperm samples tossed into Test Tubes, and each got their name labeled on them with no rhyme or reason (Let's call this one John Smith, and this one we'll call Jose Rodriguez, and hmmmm...Let's call this one Khan Noonian Singh, and this one we'll call Xavier Pencilpusher....)

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Would some people have been satisfied if BC had been made up to resemble another ethnicity and had affected an accent?

What people wanted (and expected) was a non-white actor to play a non-white character, and they didn't get that; that's why there's outrage about this in certain quarters, with some of it coming from white people.

On top of that the British white guy villain just feels cliche. They had a chance to not go that direction and they just played it safe.

Many people feel that the plot could have been different, too.

 

[Ryan8bit]

So you'd be cool with an Indian looking terrorist in a major feature film, in this day and age? Very un PC

Assuming political correctness is even a worthwhile or accurate descriptor here, I personally don't think skin color has any bearing on a person's actions, so it wouldn't bother me. I think anybody that it would bother might be racist.

I guess what I liked about the original idea of Khan was that he was this superman; this great feat of human ingenuity. And to the surprise of audiences of the 60's, he was not white. Maybe lots of people would assume that eugenics or genetic engineering would mean white people at the top, but that was flipped on its head there. That was all dropped in TWOK and STID. It seems regressive.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

What people wanted (and expected) was a non-white actor to play a non-white character, and they didn't get that; that's why there's outrage about this in certain quarters, with some of it coming from white people.

The character's not established as "non-white," since the only other times we've seen him he's been played by a white guy as well.

 

[Belz...]

So you'd be cool with an Indian looking terrorist in a major feature film, in this day and age? Very un PC

I hate PC.

Plus, since he's an augment, for all we know, they were all just a bunch of Eggs and Sperm samples tossed into Test Tubes, and each got their name labeled on them with no rhyme or reason

Good point.