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News They can't use stuff from ANY Trek movie!

Sometimes a studio owns a concept or character but still needs to pay its creators residuals for the use of it, so they may avoid it more for the sake of saving money than because of rights issues. I'm pretty sure that's why Stargate Atlantis avoided featuring Col. O'Neill and Daniel Jackson (created by Dean Devlin & Roland Emmerich for the movie) in the same episodes with Samantha Carter and Teal'c (created by Jonathan Glassner & Brad Wright for SG-1) -- so they wouldn't have to pay two sets of residuals for the same episode.
 
Sometimes a studio owns a concept or character but still needs to pay its creators residuals for the use of it, so they may avoid it more for the sake of saving money than because of rights issues. I'm pretty sure that's why Stargate Atlantis avoided featuring Col. O'Neill and Daniel Jackson (created by Dean Devlin & Roland Emmerich for the movie) in the same episodes with Samantha Carter and Teal'c (created by Jonathan Glassner & Brad Wright for SG-1) -- so they wouldn't have to pay two sets of residuals for the same episode.

And then you have the Daleks in Doctor Who.
 
And then you have the Daleks in Doctor Who.

That's different. That actually is about ownership, not just residuals/royalties. In England, generally, freelance writers who create characters for a TV series retain ownership of the characters -- the show can't use them without the creators' permission, which is why the Daleks were missing for large swaths of the classic series when Terry Nation wasn't willing to share them. And the creators have the right to use their characters separately without the BBC's involvement, the way Bob Baker did with K-9 or Nation tried to do with his Dalek series pitch to US television.

But in the US, whatever you write for a TV show is the property of the show's production company. They're the only ones who can use the characters or concepts you create. They don't need your permission to use those concepts, and you don't get to use them in some separate, original work, because they don't belong to you. But you still get paid for their use, because that's your contractually agreed-upon compensation for signing away the ownership to them. The right to compensation does not equal the right to ownership.

This is why US-made shows and movies have a credit at the end saying "Studio Name Here is the Author of this motion picture under British law." That's how US studios maintain their ownership rights over their creations in terms of British law, where authors retain ownership rights.
 
I have to say all this two party ownership crap, just makes me want them to rehire Bruce Greenwood for Pike next season all the more.

Then after the re-merger, they can backpeddle with a join the fleet in a fight to save Vulcan from the Narada cliffhanger. In the meantime the U.S.S. Enterprise bites the dust, and the one they've been building in Iowa take its place.
 
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I have to say this crap just makes me want them to hire Bruce Greenwood all the more.

Sure, and Zachary Quinto if they can get him. I saw a comment today that casting Quinto would make people think the show was in the Kelvin timeline, and it probably would for people who can't read a calendar (the Enterprise is active in 2256-7 in DSC and not even launched until 2258 in Kelvin)... but I replied, if David Bradley can go from playing the actor who played the First Doctor to actually playing the First Doctor himself in Doctor Who, then it should be no problem for Quinto (or Greenwood) to jump realities.
 
This claim must be in error, because movie elements have already been seen in DSC.

I don't know. It seems pretty plausible to me. I mean, everything you listed as examples was already on television before:

The show uses Marc Okrand's Klingonese, which was invented for ST III. The movie pronunciation "Kronos" for "Qo'noS" has been used in the show, by Mirror Georgiou; they're just variant romanizations of the same place name anyway, like Moscow/Moskva.

Earth Spacedock from ST III was seen under construction in Earth orbit in the season finale. Also in the finale, Ceti eels were glimpsed in a frying pan in the Orion sector of Qo'noS. The Starfleet ship designs are heavily movie-influenced, especially the Enterprise. Discovery's own design is based on a rejected Enterprise redesign from an abandoned 1976 feature film project. There's a starship named the T'Plana-Hath, after the philosopher mentioned in ST III.

They talked klingon and about Kronos a big deal in TNG. The spacedock appeared on the episode "11001100" of TNG on television, the starship and starfleet designs are "influenced" by the movies - but very noticable in a Nick Locarno/Tom Paris-kind of way, where it's obvious they are trying to include alterations. And the ceti eels were nothing more than a little easter egg, also probably generica-brand (could be equally the mind control bugs from TNG's "conspiracy").

To me, it seems they can't include anything that has ONLY appeared on the movies. Now nothing of that would be any problem if DIS wasn't just so damn obsessive about and dependant on callbacks to previous Trek stories...
 
I have to say all this two party ownership crap, just makes me want them to rehire Bruce Greenwood for Pike next season all the more.

Then after the re-merger, they can backpeddle with a join the fleet in a fight to save Vulcan from the Narada cliffhanger. In the meantime the U.S.S. Enterprise bites the dust, and the one they've been building in Iowa take it's place.

Yeah. Splitting up a singular IP is a phenomenally stupid decision, that comes only out of business tactics, and is rather hurtfull to any type of creative process...

Marvel Studios is still playing "catch 'em all" about their own movie rights (FF4, Spider-Man, X-Men,...). Disney and Warner Bros. are lucky their properties like Star Wars and DC aren't broken up.

Dang. Star Trek as a brand really is in a more dire situation than I imagined if this is true. It's like having the movie rights to Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson being split up between two different studios...
 
I don't know. It seems pretty plausible to me. I mean, everything you listed as examples was already on television before:

That doesn't matter. If it's a question of rights and ownership, then the key issue is who created the idea in the first place, or under which corporation's aegis it originated.


To me, it seems they can't include anything that has ONLY appeared on the movies. Now nothing of that would be any problem if DIS wasn't just so damn obsessive about and dependant on callbacks to previous Trek stories...

Just because you can't unambiguously rule it out, that doesn't automatically prove it's true. Alex Kurtzman already said it isn't true, and he outranks an executive story editor by 6 or 7 levels.

Look at the copyright and trademark notices on any Trek tie-in book or comic, say. Anything that uses elements from the first ten movies -- like my TMP-sequel novel Ex Machina, or any of the novels set on the Enterprise-E or using Nemesis characters like Donatra -- just says "Copyright CBS Studios." Generally you only get a Paramount trademark statement (alongside the CBS copyright) on Kelvin-timeline tie-ins, although IDW's Hive comic set in the post-Nemesis Prime timeline does list Paramount for some reason. So I'm skeptical of the claim that Paramount retains any ownership of anything pre-Kelvin, since all those films were made when it was all one company, and CBS retains full ownership of every bit of it as far as I'm aware. The folks at CBS who approve my Trek novel outlines have never, ever told me I couldn't use anything from the first 10 movies. So if us lowly book writers can use it, I'd be astonished if the makers of the actual show couldn't.
 
They talked klingon and about Kronos a big deal in TNG.

I'm not sure they ever mentioned the name Kronos or Quo'nos in TNG. I believe it was always "the Klingon Homeworld." DS9? Yes. Voyager? I dunno. ENT? Yes. But I don't think they did in TNG.
 
I can understand not using the Kelvin timeline while those movies are still being made but I think it's not true about the other 10 movies. I'd be very surprised if everything Prime isn't available to use. Some stuff from the first 10 movies has already appeared in Discovery.
 
Could it be the case that while CBS has a contract with Paramount they forgot to put Bad Robot under the contract?
 
I'm not sure they ever mentioned the name Kronos or Quo'nos in TNG. I believe it was always "the Klingon Homeworld." DS9? Yes. Voyager? I dunno. ENT? Yes. But I don't think they did in TNG.

That's right, they never used it in TNG.

http://scriptsearch.dxdy.name/?page=results&query=({line|kronos,})

Could it be the case that while CBS has a contract with Paramount they forgot to put Bad Robot under the contract?

As Kurtzman said, it's not really a rights issue, just that it's a different continuity so one wouldn't expect the stories to overlap.
 
According to Ron Moore, Qo'nos was never spoken in TNG due to a directive from Berman or Piller (he doesn't remember which). It was spoken quite often in DS9 and even on Voyager though.
 
Well, this is all clear as mud. The original one-sentence statement from Erika Lippoldt is anything but self-explanatory, and all the speculation based on it is sheer guesswork. Kurtzman's (seemingly) contradictory statement in his own interview is equally ambiguous.

Let's everyone keep in mind: writers are not lawyers. Odds are what we have here is the equivalent of a giant game of telephone: EL has heard there was a corporate split between CBS and Paramount, and she knows someone up the pipeline from her has told the writers' room "don't use elements XYZ," and she's inferred a connection... but she doesn't know the details of IP law nor any specific contractual constraints involving any specific characters or concepts (nor does she have any reason to), so when she mentions "the rights issue" without saying what it is, that really tells us nothing. To the extent that fans now base additional inferences or assumptions on her statement, that's just extending the game of telephone even further.

Here's what I (think I) know: CBS owns all the IP (intellectual property) associated with Star Trek — or at least, all the copyrights, although perhaps an ancillary trademark here or there belongs to someone else (whether Franz Joseph Designs, Bad Robot Productions, or whomever). Note that trademark basically just refers to distinctive visual iconography... copyright is what's important here, as it covers all the concepts, characters, and so forth. (For instance, Superman's "S" shield symbol is trademarked, but Superman as a character is owned as a matter of copyright.)

This doesn't mean that CBS can necessarily do anything it wants with that IP, because ownership isn't everything; there are also contracts. Under contract, per the 2005 Viacom split, Paramount owns the Trek films, even though it doesn't own the IP they're based on, and has a contractual license to produce new Trek films. (Similarly, for instance, Sony holds the Spider-Man film rights, and owns the specific Spider-Man films it's produced over the last couple of decades, even though Disney/Marvel owns the IP... so as a matter of contract, until the rapprochement between Sony and Marvel Studios a year or two back, Marvel couldn't use the character in its own Marvel Studios-produced "Marvel Cinematic Universe." Now that the relevant contracts have been renegotiated, it can, but Sony still gets a cut.)

Where Trek in general and DSC in particular are concerned, the logical upshot of all this (unless there are some very unusual contracts involved) is that CBS can produce new Trek material for TV, but not film... and in that material, it's free to use any Trek-related IP it wants, with the possible contractual exceptions of characters/concepts and/or visual trademarks created for and used exclusively within the films (such as, for instance, Saavik, Sybok, or the Ryan Church version of the Enterprise). It could probably even use those if it wanted to, with the caveat that doing so would involve paying fees to the current rights holders. What those fees are and what contractual headaches would be involved, we have no way of knowing. (TBH it seems kind of moot to me, as I can't personally think of any movie-exclusive content that would even be relevant to the pre-TOS setting of DSC, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.) Of course, what elements producers may have told the writers' room to steer clear of for various reasons other than contractual constraints, we also have no way of knowing.

Meanwhile, other kinds of tie-in products (such as novels, online games, etc.) involve rights that are completely separate from film (or TV) rights, and CBS is free to license those out however it pleases.

At least, that's my best guess, knowing what I do of IP law but nothing of the details of CBS's contracts. If anyone has more reliable information, by all means shed some light here!

Meanwhile, on a completely unrelated tangent... from the article:
I think this was something that [EP/Director] Akiva [Goldsman] really liked the notion of. He just kept joking, “Klingons have two dicks, Klingons have two dicks.” And then finally showed it on television.
Puerile as that sounds, it's just about the level of sophistication I'd expect from Akiva Goldsman. Sigh. I have no doubt the entire show would be better off without his involvement.
 
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I doubt this rule would ever actually be enforced. Probably just miscommunication.

CBS and Viacom have the same controlling owner, and she's the one forcing them to merge again.
 
That doesn't matter. If it's a question of rights and ownership, then the key issue is who created the idea in the first place, or under which corporation's aegis it originated.

Does it, though?
I think companies have much leeway to negotiate their own terms of ownerships in contracts. For example, both Marvel Studios AND Fox had the rights to Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver, because they are both mutants AND Avengers.

I can easily see acontract that basically says: "Everything that's exclusive to the movies (ANY movies) is off-limits/belongs solely to Paramount" - which includes all the specific trademarked designs as well as characters and events solely created for the movies (Shinzon, Saviik, destruction of Vulcan by red matter). That would be the "exclusivity" that @lawman described much better in his much more detailed post. But also "Everything that appears BOTH in the movies AND on television (klingons, Vulcans, Pike, Picard ...) can be used by BOTH companies." being part of the contract. Because that would make a certain amount of sense in such a broad IP as Star Trek. And that CBS - rightfully - presumed they can include, say, the spacedock, which originated in STIII, but was also seen on TNG, and is therefore part of "both" company's screen present. But they could NOT for example use the USS Kelvin or Cpt. Robeau (sadly:confused:).

Just because you can't unambiguously rule it out, that doesn't automatically prove it's true. Alex Kurtzman already said it isn't true, and he outranks an executive story editor by 6 or 7 levels.

Well, it's entirely possible that what was said here is all untrue. But I don't believe it, because it fits with what was presented on screen, and somebody from the production DIRECTLY said it. But ALSO because it doesn't really contradict Alex Kurtzman's statement either - he was talking about different timelines. Not legal agreements. Erika Lippoldt on the other hand did specifically that. I prefer to stick with Occam's razor in this case - what the people from production say (and what fits with what is presented on screen) is actually true, and not someone lying/grossly misrepresenting the facts.
 
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