Spoilers Theory about Carl

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Unimatrix Q, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. Ketrick

    Ketrick Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2013
    Location:
    Maryland
    Having seen both parts now, I wonder if there's more to Carl being the Guardian of Forever. It has been suggested that there's a connection between Carl/GoF and the Tkon Guardian. The reveal of who Carl really is convinces me this is almost certainly so and that Carl/GoF is a product of the Tkon Empire.
     
    Ar-Pharazon likes this.
  2. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Location:
    Far North Chicago Suburbs
    I would buy that for a dollar. Does the GoF's origin ever get touched upon in a novel?
     
  3. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    On the USS Sovereign
    The GoF is billions of years old. The Tkon empire is not that nold
     
    dupersuper likes this.
  4. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    USS Cerritos/Protostar
    Makes me wonder if the Tkon used the Guardian or based their Portal technology on it. And then the Tkon Empire got involved in some shady temporal stuff, so the Guardian got rid of them via supernova.

    When you piss off Carl, he starts supernovas.
     
  5. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    Clearly a lot of people after TOS and TAS found out about the Guardian and tried to use it for their own nefarious purposes. There were centuries of history in between the two eras and who knows how many Temporal Cold War soldiers and temporal agents used it to gain access to the past.
     
    Lord Garth likes this.
  6. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Vasquez Rocks, Bajor
    Probably read about it in the papers published by Professors Aleek-Om and Grey in the Journal of Temporal Mechanics
     
    Lord Garth and Nyotarules like this.
  7. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    And the Federation being the gold standard of "tight security" that they've always been I'm sure they gave up protecting and guarding it at some point and just assumed it would go undiscovered or unused by malevolent agencies.
     
    KirkusOveractus and urbandk like this.
  8. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    Ambler, PA
    That's what Carl alludes to, doesn't he?
     
    F. King Daniel likes this.
  9. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    Yeah, and it's obviously not just a clever statement on his part to muddy the waters and protect his own safety. He was abused as a temporal gateway and relocated himself tens of thousands of light-years across space itself to get away from people who wanted to use him for nefarious purposes.

    When a GATEWAY moves halfway across the galaxy to get away from your kind you know you've been taking advantage of the thing.
     
  10. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    I loved when Carl explained how chill he used to be about people using him to travel through time. He really gave zero fucks:lol:
     
    Jinn, burningoil, dupersuper and 2 others like this.
  11. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    Yeah, in TOS and TAS the Guardian was like: "You wanna use me? Fine, your time. So to speak." :)
     
  12. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    Pardon me whilst I do some FACT TREKing on all this. Mostly because most of the sources fans have access to have repeatedly gotten the particulars wrong about the development of the outlines and script, whereas we (@Harvey and I) have many many if not most of the drafts of it and tracked the changes.

    The firing squad and environmental suits appear only in the Original Treatment dated March 21, 1966. In the Revised Treatment May 13, 1966 all the firing squad stuff is crossed out and Beckwith flees via the transporter. Thereafter it was always Beckwith (and, finally, McCoy) deliberately beaming down. Kirk reports the planet shouldn't have an atmosphere yet it does, so no environment suits.

    ^^^This revision process is pretty typical. Ellison wrote his first outline very early on...before there was anything but the two pilots to refer to. He got feedback from the Trek staff on things that didn't fit the planned and developing show format, so out went the firing squad and expensive space suits, etc., and the Revised Treatment reflects this.

    You are correct that Ellison's original idea was that there were Guardians plural who resided in the titular City on the Edge of forever atop mountains in the distance. But, just to clarify a fundamental difference, the Vortex was less a device for time travel and more a means of accessing and harnessing the flux lines of time and space, which the First Guardian said was because "only here" did all the pulse lines of forever meet.

    The Guardians plural appear in all the story outlines and the "Writers Draft" script.

    By the official first draft, the Guardians plural become a single Guardian, "the last of my kind".

    At no point in any Ellison draft are the humanoid Guardians actually the time vortex, which is what Carl says he is.

    Even of they had been, it would still not be the original concept, because they were never "statues"; albeit they were basically immobile except for their faces.

    In summary. Carl is in no way shape or form anything any conception of the Guardian(s) that Ellison ever wrote, regardless of what RMB or any other self-proclaimed authority claims.
     
  13. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2020
    In the Q Continuum books, Q said he was a creation of the Q before they ascended into energy beings. In the Yesterdays Son/Time for Yesterday books, several members of the ancient species who built the city around the GoF are said to have travelled through the portal, and a few return very powerful and out of their minds.
     
    Ar-Pharazon likes this.
  14. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    Bavaria
    That is actually why RMB doesn't like it
     
  15. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    Well, he can get over it.

    He won't.

    But he can try.
     
    Noah_23 likes this.
  16. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    He just uses outrage to generate engagement. It's a tired old internet trick that people keep falling for.
     
    Jinn, Noah_23, Lord Garth and 4 others like this.
  17. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    Bavaria
    and yet, it is not what you claimed, but what you pointed out is his reason
     
  18. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    It IS what he claimed at first.
     
  19. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    Bavaria
    He thought Carl was like one of Ellison's Guardians? Then why did he oppose it?
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Vasquez Rocks, Bajor
    Because....DISCO
     
    Lord Garth likes this.