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The Wrongs of Starship Design (TOS Version)

Well if primary hull = habitat, secondary hull = power, and nacelles = speed, then double hulls and nacelles would mean double power and speed. Still, it is a good point that it is a stretch to imagine these things going around when they were having enough to-do with the Excelsior. I could go either way.

For a Federation warship, the best example is really the Defiant; nothing hanging out there exposed, not even the bridge. The traditional design of saucer-nacelles-secondary hull is really not a good thing to be in if you are certain that folks are going to be shooting at you. Too many critical components are just begging to get shot off.

I'd like to see someone take the design concept of the Defiant and expand it into a full scale battleship. I think we'd see something like six smaller nacelles, held in close to the hull, a fairly small profile, probably no saucer, not quite as long as a Galaxy class, with a much smaller crew.

This isn't exactly what you were talking about - but what you said reminded me of an idea I had about ten years back - basically taking the Defiant from the bridge back, scaling it up, and swapping the front section and notch with the Enterprise-E saucer. My idea was that it would be the Enterprise-J at the time, and that Starfleet engineering would slowly shift towards fully integrated hulls.

This is a re-imagining of that idea, retaining most of the same details but improved just a bit. (Forgive my sketching, I haven't quite gotten used to my Wacom yet.) I'm thinking there is an upper shuttlebay behind the bridge 'platform' and another at the fantail. They would be connected to a larger internal hangar, usually one used to enter and another to exit during combat flight ops. The impulse 'spurs' would resemble the Voyager's to some regard.
 
Well if primary hull = habitat, secondary hull = power, and nacelles = speed, then double hulls and nacelles would mean double power and speed. Still, it is a good point that it is a stretch to imagine these things going around when they were having enough to-do with the Excelsior. I could go either way.

For a Federation warship, the best example is really the Defiant; nothing hanging out there exposed, not even the bridge. The traditional design of saucer-nacelles-secondary hull is really not a good thing to be in if you are certain that folks are going to be shooting at you. Too many critical components are just begging to get shot off.

I'd like to see someone take the design concept of the Defiant and expand it into a full scale battleship. I think we'd see something like six smaller nacelles, held in close to the hull, a fairly small profile, probably no saucer, not quite as long as a Galaxy class, with a much smaller crew.

This isn't exactly what you were talking about - but what you said reminded me of an idea I had about ten years back - basically taking the Defiant from the bridge back, scaling it up, and swapping the front section and notch with the Enterprise-E saucer. My idea was that it would be the Enterprise-J at the time, and that Starfleet engineering would slowly shift towards fully integrated hulls.

This is a re-imagining of that idea, retaining most of the same details but improved just a bit. (Forgive my sketching, I haven't quite gotten used to my Wacom yet.) I'm thinking there is an upper shuttlebay behind the bridge 'platform' and another at the fantail. They would be connected to a larger internal hangar, usually one used to enter and another to exit during combat flight ops. The impulse 'spurs' would resemble the Voyager's to some regard.

Artistically, it is like Jim Martin intercepted by John Eaves, but not hurt by him. I really like it, and think somebody should garage-model that sucker at a huge size immediately.

Then again, I'd also like to buy a miniature of the EVENT HORIZON, but I guess I'd have to assemble it in zero-gee to keep it from falling apart.
 
Not to mention being very reminiscent of some of Matt Jefferies' conceptual sketches, as well as the Leif Ericson.



You mean those? The man was ahead of his time.

And thanks for the warm response, I think I will continue developing this. I'll take any suggestions, including name, into account. 'Juggernaut' was just a placeholder.
 

Wow, very nice, design and art style. What program are you wacom-ing in?

Hey, thanks. Corel Painter Essentials 4 actually... my Adobe Suite is on the other computer that I don't use so much and the Corel Painter actually came with it and actually works really well. I think the hardest part of wacom-ing is forgetting that your drawing on the computer. Well, that and not having a physical ruler.

(Wow, how many times can I use 'actually' in one post?) :p
 

Wow, very nice, design and art style. What program are you wacom-ing in?

Hey, thanks. Corel Painter Essentials 4 actually... my Adobe Suite is on the other computer that I don't use so much and the Corel Painter actually came with it and actually works really well. I think the hardest part of wacom-ing is forgetting that your drawing on the computer. Well, that and not having a physical ruler.

(Wow, how many times can I use 'actually' in one post?) :p

Sorry to be off-topic for a moment, but is that in any way similar to
the old MetaCreations Painter Classic program?
I may try to reinstall that, although it probably won't run on Vista. :)

Well, OK here's a comment.
One thing about your design I find intriguing; it could be very scalable, while retaining it's particular starfleet look (and still look good). (One thing I've always been facinated with is very small or very large versions of the same "technical/design ethic"...in ST's case, very small "enterprise" designs look silly (I keep trying to do them for some reason:). But, I've always "assumed" (in a trekkie way) there was a reason behind why the E looked like she did, and thus those "warp-dynamic rules" would perhaps apply to other sized vehicles. (?????)
I know many here like Shaw, Warped9, and others have gone to great, wonderful technical lengths to flesh out and explain many of these things, so....I don't know.
To make a long thread short, I think this general design would look good 50' long or 1000'.
I'll just wrap up by saying great job, and hope to see more.
 
I hadn't heard of Metacreations Painter Classic until you mentioned it so I'm not really sure. The Corel program is pretty good. I would recommend buying the Wacom Bamboo set even if you've been leery about using a pad in the past.

And I do get your comment, actually it's really flattering. :) I think I will start working on some orthos for the ship soon... what is that software you've used to make those excellent orthos of the Abramsprise, judexavier?
 
I hadn't heard of Metacreations Painter Classic until you mentioned it so I'm not really sure. The Corel program is pretty good. I would recommend buying the Wacom Bamboo set even if you've been leery about using a pad in the past.

And I do get your comment, actually it's really flattering. :) I think I will start working on some orthos for the ship soon... what is that software you've used to make those excellent orthos of the Abramsprise, judexavier?

Something I bought in '97 or '98...it had a whole set of complex "procedural" tools/brushes that would emulate wet oil paint strokes, pastels, etc. etc. No layers though (that somewhat limited it's usefulness to what I was doing - I think it was actually a cheaper, limited version of the full program). I used it as sort of an external photoshop plugin. It was very good at what it set out to do, though.
Ah, the Wacom. Coolest thing ever made, IMO. (Well maybe not the coolest, but...anyway) Yeah, I need desperately to upgrade. I've still got an old beat up serial port ArtPad II, the tiny 4" one :)...used that for years, and love it. It's dying now, the middle area has no sensitivity. :(

As far as the stuff I've been doing, I just use photoshop. Many of those files are, like, 14000 x 6000 pixels, with a billion or so layers. :) (Perhaps Not the best way to work!) Thank God for modern computer hardware!

Looking forward more on your ship, sketches, and your orthos!
 
It's not that; it's that I got a clear feeling from TOS that the Enterprise and her sisters were the pride of the fleet, and not that there were larger and notably more powerful ships waiting in the wings to do the heavy lifting. All that business about what a special sort of man it takes to be a starship captain, and "Starship Class" on the plaque, but the dreadnoughts are, I guess, more starship-y and are even more elite? Kirk doesn't rate a dreadnought?
See, this is one of those thought-processes that seem so common among fans, but which, when you really think it through, make almost no sense.

Why, exactly, does "bigger" means "better?"

You don't see that as a common thing in TV sci-fi? Is it accurate to suggest that this thought process originates with fans, or in the property of which they are fans? Plenty of overlap there, I suppose.

Is a 747 "better" than, say, an F-22? Is a Chinook "better" than, say, an Apache Longbow?

Size isn't the primary factor... that's my point.

In the case of the Constitution-class (post-WNMHGB-refit) ships, these twelve ships are the pride of the fleet, no argument about it. They field the most advanced technology, have the most accomplished crews, and have the OVERALL greatest capabilities. They are outfit as not just military vessels (as the original-build Constitution-type ships were) but also as science vessels, and as DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS.

Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, aren't built for exploration, for scientific work, or to spend long periods of time away from home. They aren't expected to be making first-contact very often. They, instead, are used as fleet command-and-control ships, and during peacetime are generally home-ported at a specific Starbase, serving as local security, and as the emergency "on-call" starship for that port and its immediate area of influence. In times of war, the flag staff from that base could transfer all flag operations to the dreadnought and become a "mobile headquarters," capable of defending itself from most attackers, or as being the spearhead of a major assault fleet, and of outrunning most pursuers, if necessary.

The Dreadnought is pure military. The heavy cruiser, on the other hand, is the "face of the Federation." And the 12 "400+ crew" cruisers with full science-vessel systems installed are the best of the best. Not because they're the toughest warships... but rather because they're the best OVERALL ships. "Jacks of all trades," essentially, but nearly as capable as any of the dedicated-purpose ships out there for most missions.

Yes. I also said "notably more powerful." Now, unlike in the examples you have put above, my understanding is the dreadnought is not only larger, but better armed and faster. It holds more crew members and has a greater range. I don't think we will pretend it has inferior sensors, since as like eight people were quick to point out, its extra dishes are supposed to be sensors. Maybe it doesn't have as many science labs as the Enterprise...but it sure has room to, doesn't it? Does the technical manual specify the dreadnought's inferiority at exploration missions? Please remind me of what it says on this topic; I don't take mine on the road.

To me, the big thing I see you pointing out that it cannot do is

DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS

for which, correct me if I am wrong, the Enterprise usually took on some empowered Federation diplomat and shuttled them around. Now, seeing as the dreadnought is larger and can go faster as well as protecting the diplomats more effectively, I am not sure how one could fail to outperform the Enterprise in this mission. Perhaps you are suggesting it has less comfortable furniture and the food is lousy? I can't think of any good ways to handicap it diplomatically. Well, maybe you could assign only really unlikable persons to crew it, but then, that isn't really a function of the starship design. :)
 
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See, this is one of those thought-processes that seem so common among fans, but which, when you really think it through, make almost no sense.

Why, exactly, does "bigger" means "better?"
You don't see that as a common thing in TV sci-fi? Is it accurate to suggest that this thought process originates with fans, or in the property of which they are fans? Plenty of overlap there, I suppose.
Well, I'll grant that many production-team members share this misconception, which is, I believe, what your point is.

Still doesn't make it right, though.
Yes. I also said "notably more powerful." Now, unlike in the examples you have put above, my understanding is the dreadnought is not only larger, but better armed and faster.
Actually, I DID say that about the dreadnought. Yes, more heavily armed. Yes, fast enough to "run away" or "charge into battle" faster (at the cost of "fuel economy").
It holds more crew members and has a greater range.
More crew members isn't a requirement... and if it does hold more, why would you assume (again) that "more" equals "better?" Perhaps it carries a full company of marines as a strike force, rather than historical, a geophysical, biological, and other specialized science teams. DIFFERENT people, not "more"... that's what we're talking about here.

And who said anything about greater RANGE? Bigger ships typically (in real life, and as far as we know, in Trekkian terms) consume fuel at much greater rates. So a dreadnought may well be faster, but that means NOTHING about "greater range." A heavy cruiser may be able to, under ideal conditions, fly for five years without a resupplying, while a dreadnought may only be able to fly for five MONTHS without support. This is not a factor of SIZE, it's a factor of PURPOSING.
I don't think we will pretend it has inferior sensors, since as like eight people were quick to point out, its extra dishes are supposed to be sensors.
That's a dramatic oversimplification. "Sensors" isn't some generic term where every sensor is the same. And note, this has nothing to do with sensor PURPOSING, nor with lab/personnel availability.

Maybe the dreadnought's sensor/scanner suite is capable of monitoring all space travel within an entire sector, at a much higher sensitivity and accuracy than, say, the heavy cruiser would have the ability of doing. Yet, the heavy cruiser would have other capabilities (geological surveying, life-form surveying, etc) which the dreadnought's sensors would not be designed to be used for.

And where the Enterprise and her eleven sister ships might have a full suite of labs and pure R&D/surveying departments, those might be entirely absent on the dreadnought, with a much smaller (and much more combat-mission-oriented) science division.

The dreadnought would be better suited for its role, and the heavy cruiser (explorer refit) would be better suited for ITS role.
Maybe it doesn't have as many science labs as the Enterprise...but it sure has room to, doesn't it?
Not necessarily. You have a certain amount of space onboard. But for a ship with a different mission, you would use that space for different purposes. Replace the spaces used for, say, Marla McGivers' historical division with an "office of fleet logistics." Replace the spaces used for, say, the geophysics and xenobiology departments with a marine barracks facility. Replace much of the cargo space in the secondary hull with expanded hangar facilities for dedicated combat craft ("killer bees" or whatever). Use that which DOES exist for storage of, say, deployable ground shelters, ground combat vehicles, etc.
Does the technical manual specify the dreadnought's inferiority at exploration missions? Please remind me of what it says on this topic; I don't take mine on the road.
I'm assuming that was an attempt at sarcasm.

Obviously, FJ's tech manual didn't contain anything of the sort. It had TWO PAGES referring to the dreadnought... one with a picture, one with a list of ships. Other than that, it's pretty much wide open.

But if you know diddly squat about REAL naval vessel design (upon which Trek technology and culture has always been based, to one extent or another), dreadnoughts are dedicated heavy-combat vessels, while cruisers are multi-role ships. You can check out those REAL WORLD definitions if you wish.

But the dreadnought isn't just a "better cruiser." It's a different type of vessel for a reason. And that reason is that it's designed for a different purpose.
To me, the big thing I see you pointing out that it cannot do is
DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS
for which, correct me if I am wrong, the Enterprise usually took on some empowered Federation diplomat and shuttled them around. Now, seeing as the dreadnought is larger and can go faster as well as protecting the diplomats more effectively, I am not sure how one could fail to outperform the Enterprise in this mission.
Man, oh man, you really just want to make this an argument, don't you?

Sure, if you're at war and want to "shake the saber" at an enemy, you might well send in your team on the most powerful combat vessel you have. And since, apparently, you think "bigger is better" without looking deeper at things, fine.

But imagine, if you will, that you're the leader of some world... and you're being contacted for some allegedly peaceable purpose. And what if the people you're contacting send in their "biggest combat vessel?" How, exactly, do you react? Do you feel, say, a little INTIMIDATED?

Now, suppose that these same people send in a ship who's purpose is primarily one of exploration. Well-armed but not "the big gun" of the fleet. Is the psychological impact going to be the same?

Oh, and the first ship isn't outfit with an entire cultural anthropology section who can analyze your culture... while the second one is. So, the captain of the dreadnought is going to be less-well-advised in matters of culture... and more likely to make a catastrophic snafu.
Perhaps you are suggesting it has less comfortable furniture and the food is lousy? I can't think of any good ways to handicap it diplomatically. Well, maybe you could assign only really unlikable persons to crew it, but then, that isn't really a function of the starship design. :)
This is because you're really not thinking in the level of depth that you ought to be. You're being SIMPLISTIC here.

I've given a whole series of explanations above, but ultimately, it can all be summed up with the point I was making initially... that the PURPOSING of the vessel defines what it's going to be good at, and what it's not going to be as good at.

The purpose of the dreadnought is to be a fleet operations center, to be a mobile HQ, to be a "spearhead of the fleet" vessel... and to provide local security and support for "ground facilities" to which it may be assigned.

The purpose of the heavy cruiser is to "boldly go where no man has gone before." And unlike purely science-oriented ships... to be able to "boldly come back in one piece."

No ship has unlimited resources or capabilities. Every ship has only those systems, and personnel, assigned which are required for its mission profile.
 
No ship has unlimited resources or capabilities. Every ship has only those systems, and personnel, assigned which are required for its mission profile.
Now that's something I oppose in general spirit.

Cheap ships are built for single purpose. Medium-expensive ones can afford multiple purposes (largely because they can be bigger and thus accommodate more systems). So logically, the really expensive ones could the aces-of-all-trades, then, playing by the same overall rules. A lot of single-mission ships; a few medium ones; just a silver tip of expensive aces.

One might argue that "dreadnought" in TOS would be the generic name for a ship larger than a cruiser but perhaps smaller than a battleship - one more step towards the upper end of the size spectrum, but this time not towards military specialization. Instead, increased size would consistently be a step towards "aceness", and Starfleet would operate its very few dreadnoughts in the role of "better-than-cruisers", in even more versatile and independent tasks in even deeper space.

It would only be in the 24th century that Starfleet would feel obligated to invent new terminology for its ship size categories, eventually coming up with "explorer" for the biggest aces-of-all-trades to replace either dreadnought or battleship.

Timo Saloniemi
 
No ship has unlimited resources or capabilities. Every ship has only those systems, and personnel, assigned which are required for its mission profile.
Now that's something I oppose in general spirit.

Cheap ships are built for single purpose. Medium-expensive ones can afford multiple purposes (largely because they can be bigger and thus accommodate more systems). So logically, the really expensive ones could the aces-of-all-trades, then, playing by the same overall rules. A lot of single-mission ships; a few medium ones; just a silver tip of expensive aces.

One might argue that "dreadnought" in TOS would be the generic name for a ship larger than a cruiser but perhaps smaller than a battleship - one more step towards the upper end of the size spectrum, but this time not towards military specialization. Instead, increased size would consistently be a step towards "aceness", and Starfleet would operate its very few dreadnoughts in the role of "better-than-cruisers", in even more versatile and independent tasks in even deeper space.

It would only be in the 24th century that Starfleet would feel obligated to invent new terminology for its ship size categories, eventually coming up with "explorer" for the biggest aces-of-all-trades to replace either dreadnought or battleship.

Timo Saloniemi

Now that makes sense.
 
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