The Wrath Of Khan Questions??

[JoeRalat]

Was it me, or did Khan's Henchmen and Women look to young?

Also did anyone else thing that Joachim was Khan Son from Lieutenant Marla McGivers.

I know that in WOK it said that Ceti Alpha 6 blow up 6 months after they where left on the planet, but was that 6 months earth time. What if the days on Ceti Alpha 5 where like 2-3 days to us? I am sure that the crew used old world ways to measure the time. Also the time from tos ep and TWO was 18 years,
So he would be the right age.

I will also post a questions in the tech section on how Ceti Alpha 6..In real life.

 

[trevanian]

I always assumed that these are all second-generation supermen, that Khan was the only one from the original bunch still around. Judson Scott noted in interviews that his character was supposed to be Khan's son (I guess they grow up real fast), and that they actually had scenes rehearsed between the pair that had Khan quoting Milton and such before Chekov shows up (maybe never intended to be shot?)

I'm guessing the kid was named for the blackhaired superman from the episode.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Was it me, or did Khan's Henchmen and Women look to young?

The older ones seen in "Space Seed", including dark-haired Joaquin (Mark Tobin) had all died by the time of ST II. Ceti eels and the gravitation quakes.

Also did anyone else thing that Joachim was Khan Son from Lieutenant Marla McGivers.

He wasn't, although Judson Scott chose to play off a father/son dynamic. The Greg Cox novel posits Joachim as the son of Joaquin, and even explains why all the 15 year old "supermen" we see in ST II look like they're people in their 20s and are all blond, Aryan types.

There was actually a toddler cast (and filmed) as Khan's and Marla's son, and included in a family portrait painted by Marla, but the footage was dropped.

 

[trevanian]

There was actually a toddler cast (and filmed) as Khan's and Marla's son, and included in a family portrait painted by Marla, but the footage was dropped.

There was a kid filmed, yeah, but that's quite a leap to say that was supposed to be his kid with McGivers. That would mean McGivers outlived just about everybody else, since the kid wasn't very old relative to the other grown kiddies. I don't t get the idea that McGivers died recently from the film ... much more likely she was among the first, given her non-super nature.

Hadn't heard about the painting or seen it. Did Mike Minor do it?

 

[JoeRalat]

The Greg Cox novel posits Joachim as the son of Joaquin, and even explains why all the 15 year old "supermen" we see in ST II look like they're people in their 20s and are all blond, Aryan types.

Well novels are not cannon, I try to look at what is in the film and work with that.
Again 18 years between space seed and WOK so he could fit that age range.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Interesting...

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

The Greg Cox novel posits Joachim as the son of Joaquin, and even explains why all the 15 year old "supermen" we see in ST II look like they're people in their 20s and are all blond, Aryan types.

Well novels are not cannon, I try to look at what is in the film and work with that.
Again 18 years between space seed and WOK so he could fit that age range.

Well, if you want to go by "canon," it is stated on-screen twice (once by Khan and once by Kirk) that Kirk had left Khan on Ceti Alpha V 15 years ago, not 18. And I don't really buy that it was 15 Ceti Alphan Years, since Kirk uses the 15 year span when talking to Carol and there would be no reason for him to use anything other than standard years. And it doesn't seem likely that he rounded 18 down to 15, when normally it would be rounded up to 20.

 

[JoeRalat]

Well, in the trek chronology book, the date are 2267-2285 which would be 18 years. Considering that kirk was going though..it's understandable that he might get the dates wrong.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There was a kid filmed, yeah, but that's quite a leap to say that was supposed to be his kid with McGivers. That would mean McGivers outlived just about everybody else... much more likely she was among the first, given her non-super nature.

Why would Marla's recent death mean that everyone else died long before her?

The main reason Marla is dead in the movie was because they found out, fairly early on, that Madlyn Rhue had MS and, although she was still acting at the time (eg. Daphne diMera in "Days of Our Lives", and she even did a "Fantasy Island" with Ricardo Montalban!), she was usually confined to a wheelchair.

Then the scripters realised the film was stronger if Marla had died some time before ST II.

Hadn't heard about the painting or seen it. Did Mike Minor do it?

No idea. It was probably done (or commissioned) by someone working on the props for ST II. It followed that scene from "Space Seed" where it was shown that Marla was a portrait painter, and supposedly it featured Khan, Marla and "a son".

No one's published the painting, so we don't even know that the toddler in the pic was Khan's but that was certainly one of the things they thought about. (Nick Meyer liked not to "explain" everything. A good example was Khan's one glove. Meyer told him: "Leave one glove on", causing fans to wonder, "What's wrong with Khan's hand that he left on one glove?")

 

[ScatmanRescueMe]

They should have had Rhue in the wheelchair and say, "she was paralyzed during brain surgery to remove the eel.".
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Just kidding.


Still wish they'd add back the dialogue where Khan mentions her by name before he puts the eel in Chekov & Terrell..............

"...and I'll wager he never mentioned the beautiful and couragous Lt McGivers who sacrificed everything to join me in exile. Now she's as dead as earth--a plague upon you all!!"

 

[Therin of Andor]

They should have had Rhue in the wheelchair...

Hard to steer a wheelchair on a sand planet...

 

[Grant]

^^^Yea, she would have been pretty much of a 'shut-in'

"Khan, you never take me anywhere! This cargo container is like a prison!"

"Last time it took three days to get the sand out of your wheels!! And by the way this whole planet turned out to be prison, so quit complaining. It wans't my fault you fell asleep without stuffing your ears with cotton!"

Well, the poster did say he was kidding.

 

[trevanian]

There was a kid filmed, yeah, but that's quite a leap to say that was supposed to be his kid with McGivers. That would mean McGivers outlived just about everybody else... much more likely she was among the first, given her non-super nature.

Why would Marla's recent death mean that everyone else died long before her?

Unless the eels got blown there by the exploding planet, I'd assume they are native. Therefore they probably ran afoul of them early on. It apparently killed a bunch of them (there is dialog to that effect), hence you can figure she died early with the rest of them, meaning any kid would have been 10 or 15 (closer to what I guess we're supposed to think is Joachim's age.)

As far as Rhue goes, there was at least a treatment in which she appears throughout, so either her MS wasn't that advanced (in the late 70s she was still acting) or the reason for dropping her was the dramatic one, that with her around he doesn't have as big a reason for vengeancing around.

 

[Kryton]

Maybe her favorite song was that John Lennon one....

"I'm just sitting here watching the eels go 'round and 'round...."

God help me for that one...I'm going to burn for it.

 

[Timo]

Well, in the trek chronology book, the date are 2267-2285 which would be 18 years.

The VOY episode "Q2" has somewhat outdated the idea that "Space Seed" would have happened in 2267. The VOY episode says the five-year mission ended in 2270. The TOS episode takes place on stardate 3141, about halfway through TOS. If we take TOS to depict three years out of the five, that's on the second, third or fourth year. If we take TOS to depict all the five years (as it does span 5,000 stardates, at such an uneven pace that it's difficult to think of any one season as corresponding to one year exactly), that's the third year, or 2268.

And 2285 for the movie is pure guesswork, although a good choice IMHO. A 17-year time difference would almost certainly be rounded to fifteen...

IMHO, most of Khan's disciples could well be muscular fifteen-year-olds, or at least what a standard Hollywood description of a muscular fifteen-year-old looks like. And Joachim as Khan's son (one out of many, no doubt) is an idea with very few drawbacks. Perhaps the fact that he doesn't look much like either the father or the mother could count as one, though...?

That is, assuming that McGivers was the mother. I wouldn't wonder a bit if Khan enforced a wolfpack structure where he got all the women and sired all the kids!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Peach Wookiee]

A wolfpack or lion pride structure would make a lot of sense.

 

[trevanian]

A wolfpack or lion pride structure would make a lot of sense.

Only if he expected to get offworld, otherwise it is a dead-end. Even genetically enhanced inbred supermen would produce diminished results due to inbreeding. Maybe even faster than normal. Superior amibition plus superior stupidity is probably a quick route to the grave.

 

[NiteTrek]

I know that in WOK it said that Ceti Alpha 6 blow up 6 months after they where left on the planet, but was that 6 months earth time. What if the days on Ceti Alpha 5 where like 2-3 days to us?

One thing that always bothered me....how can Starfleet (or the Reliant) not know that a planet is missing in a solar system? They should have previously had the Ceti Alpha system mapped and realized that one of the planets had blown up.

Also, wouldn't Chekov have wondered "Hey, this is the system we dumped Kahn off, maybe we should see if he's still around."

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Well, in the trek chronology book, the date are 2267-2285 which would be 18 years. Considering that kirk was going though..it's understandable that he might get the dates wrong.

Personally, I think what is on screen trumps any reference book.

 

[Luke Lightsaber]

The Enterprise episodes screws this up even more.