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The Worst President, your thoughts?

Well, some of his military victories were against Indians (First Seminole War) as well, so it wouldn't help his treatment of Indians. Actually, since the Seminoles were a safe haven for runaway slaves, he actually would have been fighting against both of them at once.
 
I'm almost shocked that there is something Liberals and Conservatives can agree on, and that's best and worst presidents. This list however stops at 36, and I'm only posting the final seven.

Liberals are on the left, Conservatives on the right.
30 Coolidge ; Carter
31 Pierce ; Nixon
32 Buchanan ; Pierce
33 Andrew Johnson ; Andrew Johnson
34 Grant ; Buchanan
35 Nixon ; Grant
36 Harding ; Harding

But this was back in 1987 I believe. The Murray-Blessing survey.
 
1. Carter because he was a wuss.
2. Baby Bush because he started the war for oil in Iraq and was totally inept
3. William Harrison because he died from a cold one month after being president.
 
This is for the last comment. It was planned, of course that was how our military did things back then, but what you don't know is that was planned from the very beginning, it wasn't planned later on.

That's nonsense, how could it be planned at the beginning of the war? Nobody knew what forces would be where or what islands could be used for bases. The offensive strategy in the Pacific (SW vs. Central) was not even decided till mid '44. The Joint Chiefs issued orders to begin planning for the invasion of the Japanese home islands in the spring of 1945.

The Japanese were on their way to surrender.

Ah, hell, you're going to make me go to the bookshelf. A meeting of the War Cabinet and the Emperor in June 1945 decided that the "fundamental policy" in an invasion of the home islands would be for every man, woman and child to fight to the death. Richard Frank, Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire, Random House 1999. There were 14 army divisions and 10,000 kamikaze aircraft ready to defend the homeland, ibid.

More important, Truman et al did not know whether Japan would ever surrender. The experience so far in the war had indicated that they would not. The defense of Iwo Jima and Okinawa was virtually suicidal, and in the first US invasion of an island with a substantial number of civilian Japanese subjects, Saipan, the civilians had jumped off cliffs rather than be captured.

Both of those places were useless due to the bombing raids.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They were chose in part because they were not damaged, so the effect of the bombs could be better judged. Both were not high on the list of targets for conventional bombing because they did not have much in the way of aircraft prodcution, which was high priority, and Nagasaki's position as a naval shipyard was thought to be countered by minelaying operations. Frank again.


Japan's internal state, was nothing. No threat. Starving was better than what happened. Your saying the japanese would have agreed that hundred of thousands of Civilians(non-military) died, and the aftermath was 60 years worth of birth defects, disease, radiation poisoning, and not being able to grow healthy food on that soil. It wasn't necessary and it wasn't more ethical.

Hindsight. Many of the long-term medical consequences of the bombings were not understood at the time. At the end of the war it was estimated that as many as 10 million in Japan would have starved to death without US food supplies. And the Japanese people were not the only ones who would have suffered from the slow strangulation of the blockade and bombings. There were thousands of allied POWs and millions of Chinese under Japanese domination who would have starved right alongside them. And for an example of the vengeance that losing Japanese occupation forces took upon civilians, look at Manila 1945.

Maybe the bombings weren't more ethical. But I can't say they were less ethical, either. They broke the political deadlock between the surrender/non-surrender factions and finally bring about peace in 1945 instead of who knows when. A bad end to a horrible situation, but an end.

I believe General Marshall was against it.
[...]

That quote refers to the atomic bombs; the question was about the generals who were against the invasion.

--Justin
 
^ On Wilson....

I read an absolutely excellent book on this very subject not too long ago called Recarving Rushmore: Ranking the Presidents on Peace, Prosperity, and Liberty by Ivan Eland. I pretty much agree with his bottom five presidents, so I'll quickly quote what he had to say....

WORST (#40):
Woodrow Wilson

It can be argued that Wilson screwed up the entire twentieth century and beyond. U.S. involvement in World War I was instrumental in causing a violent twentieth century for the world. As a result of the two world wars, the Russian and Chinese revolutions, and civil wars and conflicts spawned by the Cold War - most of which can be traced to U.S. entry into World War I - the twentieth century was by far the bloodiest in world history. Approximately 110 million people lost their lives in war in that century.

Even in the twenty-first century, people are still losing their lives in conflicts (for example, in Iraq) indirectly generated by the United States entry into World War I.

Such U.S. meddling overseas led to permanent big government at home. Wilson's only positive accomplishments were his reluctant support for women's suffrage and tariff reduction.

Even before World War I, however, Wilson had dramatically changed the Democratic Party from a Jeffersonian party of small government and military restraint overseas into a part of big government and profligate armed intervention aboard. The war also allowed Wilson to engineer an unprecedented government takeover of the domestic U.S. economy - a model that was later repeated during other crises, such as the Great Depression and World War II.

And that doesn't even cover things like Wilson's founding of the Federal Reserve or his unabashed racism.
 
I don't see how you can blame the Russian Revolution on Wilson and whether or not the world would be a better place had the Central Powers won WWI (which is possible imo without the intervention of the USA) is pure speculation; it certainly would not have led to peace in Europe though.
 
If we're going to play the "what-if" game (which I love playing :techman:) I'll say this....

If the Central Powers had won World War I, it is HIGHLY unlikely that Hitler would have rose to power. If you could ask a German from the early twentieth century if he or she was better off living under the Kaiser or under the Nazis, I'd bet the answer would be that the Kaiser wins hands down.

Of course, that's all moot. The Allies would have won the war without the U.S. entry anyway. It would probably have taken longer, but the Central Powers simply could not win that war.

The only reason Wilson got the U.S. involved in the war is because he wanted a seat at the negotiating table at the peace conference. If that's not bad enough, the fact that he did such an abysmal job at the conference further means that the 50,000+ American deaths in the war were needless.
 
W (just putting an unadjusted dollar amount on damage done)
Jefferson Davis (not specifically disqualified in the thread title)
 
^ We're talking U.S. Presidents, but yeah Jefferson Davis was a bad President. Lee would have been better or Alexander Stephens.
 
The only reason Wilson got the U.S. involved in the war is because he wanted a seat at the negotiating table at the peace conference. If that's not bad enough, the fact that he did such an abysmal job at the conference further means that the 50,000+ American deaths in the war were needless.
That's an inflammatory, skewed, revisionist exaggeration. Furthermore, this:

Of course, that's all moot. The Allies would have won the war without the U.S. entry anyway. It would probably have taken longer, but the Central Powers simply could not win that war.
contradicts what you quoted from Ivan Eland:

Even in the twenty-first century, people are still losing their lives in conflicts (for example, in Iraq) indirectly generated by the United States entry into World War I.
Not having read Dr. Eland's book, I cannot say why what you quoted from him is so hyperbolic and absurd, why it smacks of propaganda, and why it fails to acknowledge officially stated reasons for entering the war, such as the fact that Germany had begun "unrestricted submarine warfare" in the Atlantic, and in the process of the submarine campaign had been killing innocent American citizens and disrupting international commerce, and such as the fact that Wilson came to believe that Germany posed a threat to Western civilization as a whole. Given what happened up until 1945, I'd say Wilson had a point.

---

My list is restricted to modern presidents, because I do not believe we can fairly compare what happened too long ago with what is happening now. Ultimately whatever "damage" has been done in the past becomes our responsibility to fix, or collectively we deserve blame for failure.

I pick three in chronological order.

Harry S. Truman (#33) = Solely because he pushed for what became the unconstitutional precedent of a police action, by which presidents have since come to believe that they may field armies for the purpose of military action without a formal Declaration of War by Congress.
Remarks: Congress itself must shoulder an even larger responsibility here. For, their responsibility is to assert the powers granted them and take their responsibilities, as outlined by the Constitution. So, it's really Congress that's fallen down on the job on this score. But presidents do push for things, and so what they push for is a fair criterion for judging them good or bad. Given the power the U.S. wields, this unconstitutional abdication of responsibility is practically criminal.

Richard M. Nixon (#37) = Solely because he was the only president to resign, and he resigned to avoid an impeachment trial for alleged criminal activity, for which he was later pardoned.

George W. Bush (#43) = For warmongering, for fear mongering, for encouraging gross fiscal negligence, for contributing to the creation of challenges that will greatly test our ability to overcome, for the harm inflicted by us upon the people of other nations, in the best light being grossly disproportionate to the harm done to us, and for otherwise succumbing to the lesser demons of our nature during a pivotal time in American and World History, and for encouraging the same in others by example.
 
The only reason Wilson got the U.S. involved in the war is because he wanted a seat at the negotiating table at the peace conference. If that's not bad enough, the fact that he did such an abysmal job at the conference further means that the 50,000+ American deaths in the war were needless.
That's an inflammatory, skewed, revisionist exaggeration.

How is it inflammatory?

How is it skewed? Because I'm basing my opinion of Wilson's presidency on my own political beliefs? Isn't that the point of this thread?

What's wrong with revisionism? Just because the received version of history says one thing, doesn't make it undeniably true.

Furthermore, this:

Of course, that's all moot. The Allies would have won the war without the U.S. entry anyway. It would probably have taken longer, but the Central Powers simply could not win that war.
contradicts what you quoted from Ivan Eland:

Even in the twenty-first century, people are still losing their lives in conflicts (for example, in Iraq) indirectly generated by the United States entry into World War I.
Um, how is that contradictory? The U.S. entry into the war influenced the direction events took afterward. If it hadn't been for the entry of the U.S., those events would have turned out differently.

Not having read Dr. Eland's book, I cannot say why what you quoted from him is so hyperbolic and absurd, why it smacks of propaganda, and why it fails to acknowledge officially stated reasons for entering the war, such as the fact that Germany had begun "unrestricted submarine warfare" in the Atlantic, and in the process of the submarine campaign had been killing innocent American citizens and disrupting international commerce, and such as the fact that Wilson came to believe that Germany posed a threat to Western civilization as a whole.
So because you don't agree with the stance, you attack it by simply calling it absurd? If you read the book you'll see that he presents a very convincing case.

And again, so what if that's what the "officially stated reasons" are? Bush's "officially stated reason" for the invasion of Iraq was that Saddam Hussein was a direct and imminent threat to the security of the United States. Obviously he was not. But, does the fact that that was the "officially stated reason" make it true?

Given what happened up until 1945, I'd say Wilson had a point.
Is that not the same skewing that you accuse me of?
 
It's amazing how many threads turn into debates about libertarianism. According to Dr. Eland's book, that Shran seems to agree with, here's how the presidents break down by his rating categories of "excellent," "good," "average," "poor," and "bad."

Number of presidents by category:
Excellent presidents = 4.
Good presidents = 6.
Average presidents = 4.
Poor presidents = 10.
Bad presidents = 16.

By Eland's standards, TWENTY-SIX of the 40 men to be president from Washington to G.W. Bush were either poor or bad. OVER HALF!

Here are his four "excellent" presidents:
1. John Tyler
2. Grover Cleveland
3. Martin Van Buren
4. Rutherford B. Hayes

The "good" presidents are:
5. Chester A. Arthur
6. Warren Harding
7. George Washington
8. Jimmy Carter
9. Dwight Eisenhower
10. Calvin Coolidge

The ten worst:
31. FDR
32. LBJ
33. George H.W. Bush
34. Ronald Reagan
35. JFK
36. George W. Bush
37. James K. Polk
38. William McKinely
39. Harry S Truman
40. Woodrow Wilson

Jefferson is 26. Lincoln is 29th. His handling of the Civil War is described by Eland as "incompetent" and "brutal."

Only one real criteria was used to rank these presidents: the way they upheld the letter of the Constitution as it would be interpreted by a libertarian.

As far as Wilson goes, yes, he was by many definitions a racist. Frankly, all presidents who turned a blind eye to civil rights have tarnished reputations.
For a politician, Wilson was also too much of a moralist who was so black and white about politics he failed to realize the strategic error he made in not listening to key Senate Republicans about the Versailles Treaty. He had a powerful enemy in Senator Lodge, who saw to it the treaty went down in the Senate largely because of that.
But the burr under the saddle for libertarians is really the progressive domestic economic reforms Wilson introduced. I'd say the rest of the criticisms are basically a smoke screen for these reviled policies that have otherwise been seen as needed over time.
 
If the Central Powers had won World War I, it is HIGHLY unlikely that Hitler would have rose to power.
I'd say it's pretty much guaranteed.

Hitler's joie de vivre came from Germany getting raped at Versailles. If the Allies lost then Germany would never had to accept total blame for the war and disarm and give up huge tracks of land.

To the victors go the spoils. Germans are happy. Hitler doesn't grow the stache and WWII doesn't happen at the expense of France being called Frankreich.
 
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