The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

[Tomalak]

It's undoubtedly the case that the film makes it really hard to like the Baku. They are a boring lot of privileged white vegan types who have decided upon an alternative lifestyle, where they are free to make their own ethical clothing from hemp and marry their own cousins. They have apparently squatted on the planet and don't have a particular claim to it.

Consider also that in Journey's End, Picard is faced with a very similar ends/means dilemma, and decides to enforce the transportation of a culture to another planet, against their will, for the greater good. He chews out Wesley for doing exactly what he later does on Baku.

But consider the planet - it has weird effects that cause people to regress, they act irrationally. Picard isn't thinking straight. He's loved up, he's stoned, and he's bought into the whole hipster lifestyle. We all get a bit carried away when we go on holiday.

I think people are getting he chronology of the film a bit confused - by the time they have determined the Baku are settlers, not natives, Dougherty has been murdered (after deciding to pause the whole operation) and Picard is trying to buy time for Riker to get word back to the Federation. Ruafo goes rogue, and Picard justifiably stops him turning the planet to ash.

What we don't know is what happens next. It's quite possible that the Baku and the Sona reconcile, and all parties sit down and agree they'll move to a different planet, and work with the Federation to exploit the particles for the greater good. Once he's away from the reefer planet, I'm sure Picard would logically look at the situation and decide it's right to try to get hold of the particles, provided they can gain the agreement of the Baku.

The Federation Council would likely conclude that Dougherty screwed things up, but was lied to by the untrustworthy Sona. They'd put the whole thing on a pause for further consideration.

 

[Vandervecken]

That a colony expects the weight and respect of a civilization is a writing problem with this movie.

Flint had full title to Holberg 917-G, and would have been within his rights to refuse the Enterprise the ryetalyn in Requiem for Methuseleh. That he had the power to back up his sovereignty should be beside the point to an enlightened civilization like the Federation; the Halkans refused their dilithium and (real) Kirk did not take it. The Bak'u have the right to the world they have claimed for centuries.

And what's the excuse for taking the world or particles? That they want them? Because the Federation can go on just fine without this immortality. Nothing here is remotely close to the excuse that Kirk might have had to take the ryetalyn, although, even then, I don't believe he had the right (and, of course, he did not have the power).

Should the Enterprise--the real one--have taken the Halkans' dilithium?

That another spacefaring power like the Klingons might do just that is no reason for the Federation to become bandits too.

Good grief. The Federation I would love to live in is NOT a conquering empire!

 

[Tomalak]

The gene pool argument is flawed too - the idea that they would have died out anyway, and therefore have no claim on the planet, is absurd and irrelevant. There's no way of knowing how they procreate, or whether inbreeding is even an issue for them. They've survived and thrived for many centuries, so obviously it isn't that much of a problem.

 

[Makarov]

Probably the worst decision that stood out to me in a rewatch of Voyager was when Janeway lets organ thieves leave with a slap on the wrist after finally getting Neelix's lungs back. She might as well have painted a sign on the ship telling those phage aliens "please take our organs."

One decision in TNG that always strikes me as bad is when Picard works with the aliens in Clues to wipe the crews memories. At the very least they could have hidden a secret message warning themselves to stay away and why. The way the episode ends, some other crew is inevitably going to be killed if they find themselves in the same situation.

 

[Triskelion]

Vandervecken, the threat the Ba'ku bring on themselves by resting on their ethical rights is not from the Federation, (beyond any mad admiral, that is). It is, however, a pretty good reason to start negotiations with the big friendly Federation, in light of the numerous other less friendly worlds and powers that still exist in this fictional enlightened future. Need they be illustrated? I wouldn't think so, to any fan oriented in the basic history of the franchise, let alone one as well-versed as you. I don't believe anyone here is endorsing barbarism by acknowledging its realistic threat in the franchise - and in RL, too.


Tomalak, if the question of birth rate is truly immaterial, then why do you go on to say there is no way to know whether it is an issue for them? I think it is a perfectly valid concern, because if it is an issue, the Federation can help them; and if it isn't an issue, then they should certainly be used to being asked why the heck not. Your further casting the question as absurd only makes me wonder if your argument can withstand the question.

Again, no one is questioning the Ba'ku's right to live in peace. But obviously their pacifism has left them vulnerable, not only to galactic baddies, but to their own brothers.

And yes, I will add that production teams sometimes think too small - like the size of a civilization, or the size of rocks in a planet's rings. (They can be mountains).

While the Ba'ku may in fact be equipped to handle many threats, there is nothing to indicate they have powers fantastic enough to stop even one Son'a ship without help. This tells me that a COLONY of 600 is absolutely vulnerable to earthquake, flood, famine, disease, and even one mad terrorist (or malfunctioning android). They are vulnerable, and if they choose to address this issue with meager ethical laurel-sitting, then they are just as doomed as fifteen million Bajorans at the hands of survival-minded Cardassians. Remember them? Let them catch wind of this Bounty in the Badlands. Think Gul Skrain Dukhat would have turned his fleet around for a commune of bird watchers?

 

[Vandervecken]

Vandervecken, the threat the Ba'ku bring on themselves by resting on their ethical rights is not from the Federation, (beyond any mad admiral, that is). It is, however, a pretty good reason to start negotiations with the big friendly Federation, in light of the numerous other less friendly worlds and powers that still exist in this fictional enlightened future. Need they be illustrated? I wouldn't think so, to any fan oriented in the basic history of the franchise, let alone one as well-versed as you. I don't believe anyone here is endorsing barbarism by acknowledging its realistic threat in the franchise - and in RL, too.

I read just that in this thread. And that's not the bright Trek future I love. Sorry to get all sentimental, but I am a Trekkie and the Federation is near and dear to me as it is, as I said, warts and all, because it IS different from most of the other AQ (and, for that matter, pan-galactic) powers (I admit to a certain fascination with Ferenginar though).

I don't disagree that the Bak'u ought to deal with the Federation; that is by far their best bet for simple survival. Although I think they ought to send an emissary directly to the Fed Council. But, if they should be so stupid as to choose to go it alone in a galaxy fraught with danger, well, it's their choice to be stupid.

 

[Triskelion]

I read just that in this thread. And that's not the bright Trek future I love. Sorry to get all sentimental, but I am a Trekkie and the Federation is near and dear to me as it is, as I said, warts and all, because it IS different from most of the other AQ (and, for that matter, pan-galactic) powers (I admit to a certain fascination with Ferenginar though).

I don't disagree that the Bak'u ought to deal with the Federation; that is by far their best bet for simple survival. Although I think they ought to send an emissary directly to the Fed Council. But, if they should be so stupid as to choose to go it alone in a galaxy fraught with danger, well, it's their choice to be stupid.

And the Son'a are their problem, too.

So would that be absolving Dougherty of any ethical obligation to the Ba'ku? Or pressing upon it?

(Rhetorical question).



I wholeheartedly agree about the Federation and the goodness it stands for. Sometimes that abundance makes it difficult to understand the sheer desperation or antipathy of some enemies.

Picard wouldn't have to twist any arms; all he might have to do to get them to the table is show them something of their neighboring Cardassian Union.

 

[Vandervecken]

well, on another subject, Donald Varley's decision to stop the Romulans from acquiring Iconian tech was pretty disastrous for the Yamato and all its crew. I can't fault him for wanting to investigate, but the results were fairly disastrous. He had every reason to think his ship and crew could handle it--but in hindsight, backup at warp 1-reachable distance would have been a very good thing.

Has anyone mentioned Picard's decision not to infect the Borg collective with Data's topological virus? MAY have been disastrous--maybe Wolf 359 wouldn't have happened had he done it.

 

[stardream]

Probably the worst decision that stood out to me in a rewatch of Voyager was when Janeway lets organ thieves leave with a slap on the wrist after finally getting Neelix's lungs back. She might as well have painted a sign on the ship telling those phage aliens "please take our organs."

One decision in TNG that always strikes me as bad is when Picard works with the aliens in Clues to wipe the crews memories. At the very least they could have hidden a secret message warning themselves to stay away and why. The way the episode ends, some other crew is inevitably going to be killed if they find themselves in the same situation.

One I was never found of was her leaving the Memorial turned on. I know she left a warning and all that and I actually liked the episode...just didn't agree with the ending. I don't know if I would go so far as to say it was the 'worst' decision she ever made but I didn't like it.

 

[Tomalak]

One decision in TNG that always strikes me as bad is when Picard works with the aliens in Clues to wipe the crews memories. At the very least they could have hidden a secret message warning themselves to stay away and why. The way the episode ends, some other crew is inevitably going to be killed if they find themselves in the same situation.

In fairness to the paranoid aliens, their standard procedure was to wipe memories and send people on their way. It was only because Data was unwipeable that it became an issue.

 

[BillJ]

Has anyone mentioned Picard's decision not to infect the Borg collective with Data's topological virus? MAY have been disastrous--maybe Wolf 359 wouldn't have happened had he done it.

Wolf 359 happens nearly two years before, "I, Borg".

 

[Tomalak]

Tomalak, if the question of birth rate is truly immaterial, then why do you go on to say there is no way to know whether it is an issue for them? I think it is a perfectly valid concern, because if it is an issue, the Federation can help them; and if it isn't an issue, then they should certainly be used to being asked why the heck not. Your further casting the question as absurd only makes me wonder if your argument can withstand the question.

I don't really think it's an issue, because they don't seem bothered by it. They live at a nice sedate pace, have extremely extended lifespans, and take an age to do anything. Even running for their lives takes a tediously long time. Plenty of creatures have ways of procreating that means a small gene pool is not a problem. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I will assume that it is not an issue for this particular species.

Again, no one is questioning the Ba'ku's right to live in peace. But obviously their pacifism has left them vulnerable, not only to galactic baddies, but to their own brothers.

But that's not actually supported by the film. They don't seem particularly vulnerable. Their planet is in the middle of the Briar Patch, which is a navigational hazard affording the planet natural protection. We also hear that it's within "Federation space", and therefore protected from other races who might wish to do them harm. As far as we know, Ruafo and his faction were the only people aware of the planet, as they left it in the first place. It was specifically chosen to be a place of sanctuary. Ruafo has known about it and the rings for over a century, had a clear motive, and hasn't been able to touch them. Dougherty suggests this is because the planet is in Federation space, and Starfleet wouldn't normally be very amenable to heavily armed Son'a ships crossing into their territory carrying illegal weapons of mass destruction. They might now become vulnerable if Planet of Immortality becomes widely known, but I would assume Starfleet would keep a tight watch over it, just as they presumably do with the Guardian of Forever.

While the Ba'ku may in fact be equipped to handle many threats, there is nothing to indicate they have powers fantastic enough to stop even one Son'a ship without help. This tells me that a COLONY of 600 is absolutely vulnerable to earthquake, flood, famine, disease, and even one mad terrorist (or malfunctioning android). They are vulnerable, and if they choose to address this issue with meager ethical laurel-sitting, then they are just as doomed as fifteen million Bajorans at the hands of survival-minded Cardassians. Remember them? Let them catch wind of this Bounty in the Badlands. Think Gul Skrain Dukhat would have turned his fleet around for a commune of bird watchers?

But again, they've lived there for centuries and seemed to manage. It could just be a planet which is remarkably geostable, has no predators, no illnesses with which they can't cope, and a mild climate. I imagine if they've settled there in an agrarian way of life, they've probably got things covered. As you say, there's only 600 of them, so I doubt they would have survived if the planet was as frightening as you suggest. It's not Earth, it's the Paradise Planet of Eternal Youth. It's just fine, thank you.

As for the more general point about pacifism, that's not really dealt with in the film, because it concerns what comes after. I said above I think the Ba'ku will be forced to change the way they deal with their neighbours. They had the luxury of secrecy and tacit protection from Starfleet, but now they'll probably have to sit down with some Federation representatives and work out the next steps.

Quite a few people in this thread have basically said that the Ba'ku are selfish pricks for sitting on a valuable resource and refusing to share it. But at no point are they actually asked about it. The whole point of the duckblind charade is that Ru'afo is lying to the Federation. They just think it's a pre-warp civilisation, and so they set up the duckblind and come up with a plan to protect them all. It's only once the cover is blown that the truth comes out, and the Federation becomes aware who they really are, and their relationship to Ru'afo's people. The Ba'ku were never asked, because Ru'afo knew the Federation would ask awkward questions, and they'd probably tell him to get lost, destroying his life's work and probably condemning his people to death.

I think it's almost certain that after Insurrection, the Federation Council made the planet a protected world, and negotiated with the Ba'ku to secure their independence and protection in return for allowing the Federation to put a research station on the other side of the planet, and work out a way to use the properties of the rings in a sustainable way, without burning the planet to a crisp.

 

[BillJ]

I think it's almost certain that after Insurrection, the Federation Council made the planet a protected world, and negotiated with the Ba'ku to secure their independence and protection in return for allowing the Federation to put a research station on the other side of the planet, and work out a way to use the properties of the rings in a sustainable way, without burning the planet to a crisp.

I think that's a big leap. They could have just as easily decided to carry out the original plan they ordered. We simply don't know.

 

[Tomalak]

I think that's a big leap. They could have just as easily decided to carry out the original plan they ordered. We simply don't know.

They couldn't, because they didn't know how the Collector worked. They had the planet, Ruafo had the tech.

 

[BillJ]

They couldn't, because they didn't know how the Collector worked. They had the planet, Ruafo had the tech.

I doubt Ru'afo was the only S'ona who coveted the energy.

 

[Tomalak]

I doubt Ru'afo was the only S'ona who coveted the energy.

But as far as we know, he was the only one who knew about it, because he'd left Ba'ku in the first place with his followers. I got the impression he schemed and plotted for over a century, gaining influence and conducting research until he was in a position of strength. I didn't get the impression he was the type to share his secrets.

But again it's rather irrelevant because the game was up. Even Dougherty realised that, before he was murdered. Sure, maybe the Federation just beamed them all into space the minute the Enterprise left the system and turned the planet to dust. But it doesn't seem very likely to me, knowing what we do about the Federation.

 

[fireproof78]

Not to cherry pick quotes but I wanted to respond to a couple of points.

They might now become vulnerable if Planet of Immortality becomes widely known, but I would assume Starfleet would keep a tight watch over it, just as they presumably do with the Guardian of Forever.

This is an interesting point and one that reminded me of a TOS book that I enjoyed a whole lot. It was a follow up story both for the Guardian of the Galaxy and Spock and McCoy going in to the past on an alien world. In the book, the Romulans determine that Planet Guardian was important because the Federation scheduled regular patrols on a planet that otherwise was unremarkable.

I agree that the Federation would likely patrol it more frequently but that could expose how important the planet is.

I think it's almost certain that after Insurrection, the Federation Council made the planet a protected world, and negotiated with the Ba'ku to secure their independence and protection in return for allowing the Federation to put a research station on the other side of the planet, and work out a way to use the properties of the rings in a sustainable way, without burning the planet to a crisp.

Personally, this would be ideal for me as I think part of my frustration with the moral discussion is the fac that at no time does the film attempt any sort of negotiation. In reality, the Federation would probably be in extensive negotiation with the Ba'ku to research and develop an understanding of the rings. So, I think this idea makes more sense.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's also important to point out that there's no proof the radiation would have even WORKED outside the Ba'ku home system.. For all we know, its unique properties can't be replicated anywhere else, even if the radiation is collected.

 

[T'Girl]

The whole point of the duckblind charade is that Ru'afo is lying to the Federation. They just think it's a pre-warp civilisation ...

No, in the movie only Picard and his crew are under the misconception that the Baku are pre-technology natives. The Federation and the Sona (obviously) are fully aware that the Baku were warp capable refugees. The duckblind's purpose was to get the holoship's simulation correct.

I think it's almost certain that after Insurrection, the Federation Council made the planet a protected world, and negotiated with the Ba'ku to secure their independence and protection in return for allowing the Federation to put a research station on the other side of the planet, and work out a way to use the properties of the rings in a sustainable way, without burning the planet to a crisp.

I think not. In Journey's End, Admiral Nechayev asked the Federation Council to reconsider their earlier decision to relocate a group of colonist, it took the Council only three days to reaffirm their previous decision. From that the Council is capable of making reasonably quick decisions on important matters.

This is what I think followed the end of the movie. The Council conducted their review of their previous decision, but what had really changed? The planet was still in the Federation (per Picard), the particles still had their medical properties, and the Sona likely could build a second collector (only Ruflo was gone).

The Baku would be relocated (openly this time), the particles harvested, many billions would be helped.

It's also important to point out that there's no proof the radiation would have even WORKED outside the Ba'ku home system..

Well, let's see. I think it's pretty obvious that the Sona thought the particles would work after being harvested, their very survival depended on it. And when the Admiral said the issue had been studied, I believe he meant Starfleet had studied it.
.

 

[Tomalak]

No, in the movie only Picard and his crew are under the misconception that the Baku are pre-technology natives. The Federation and the Sona (obviously) are fully aware that the Baku were warp capable refugees. The duckblind's purpose was to get the holoship's simulation correct.

So why does Data get invited to look around? I got the impression the Federation team were duped. If they knew the Ba'ku were technologically advanced, wouldn't they, by your own logic, just do a Journey's End, informing the Ba'ku they were being moved, and continue the operation without the elaborate deception? They only bothered to secretly move the Ba'ku because the Federation didn't want to hurt a primitive culture.

The Baku would be relocated (openly this time), the particles harvested, many billions would be helped.

So why does Geordi still have robot eyes in Nemesis? Why do they all look so old!?