The White House has never made me laugh more than now.

[The Castellan]

There was a lot of information in there to digest, and I'll admit that I read the first two posts before skimming the rest. I had several things I wanted to comment on, but it just kept going on and on and on, and I forgot most of them. (This, coincidentally, is why I like forums, because they allow you to discuss things one at a time. Posting large blocks of text doesn't allow anyone else to engage in the conversation).

I wanted to touch on the claim that NASA is a waste of billions of dollars that could have been better spent towards other things if the USAF already has the technology for interplanetary travel. I disagree; I don't think the money is a "waste". The money was spent somewhere, and put to good use. It's a fallacy to claim that money is ever "wasted", because for every dollar you spend, that's a dollar someone ELSE has to spend on something else. So I doubt the money was wasted, it was just spent in ways that we don't quite realize yet.

Being in orbit and doing nothing else for 30 years feels like a waste to me. The shuttle program did not feel like space exploration to me, especially considering how primitive the shuttle is, even when it was first unveiled in the 70's.

The NASA of old, when we were going to the moon was awesome, but today's pales in comparison, and also why make an agency to explore space is they have this oath to follow the Brookings report, which is pretty much a self imposed Prime Directive....I really don't get that.

 

[tighr]

Being in orbit and doing nothing else for 30 years feels like a waste to me. The shuttle program did not feel like space exploration to me, especially considering how primitive the shuttle is, even when it was first unveiled in the 70's.

But you do understand that our NASA space shuttles are not up in orbit of Earth burning dollar bills, right? Money is never wasted. Its spent. On things. That someone else can spend. It doesn't cease to exist. Who knows what secret government inventions came about because of the dollars we were able to spend on the Space Program?

This all relates to those "How does Trek work without money threads!?" where people fail to understand how an economy can function without currency. If we already are part of some interstellar community, albeit in secret, I doubt Centaurians or whoever are going to accept US dollars anyway in exchange for technology.

 

[FlyingLemons]

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here when there's just no proof whatsoever of UFOs and alien life.

Most "sightings" are simple cases of people mistaking everyday, natural phenomena for something extraordinary as most people aren't familiar with most of the stuff that's floating around out there in the world. And most of the "nuts and bolts" UFOs are actually more likely to be classified aircraft - things like the US's hypersonic missile program are more than evocative of UFOs such as the Belgian Triangle sightings.

"Alien abductions" can easily be explained as sleep paralysis, and when "implants" have been discovered they've turned out to be such extraordinary materials as calcified cotton from a man's underpants. In the 60 years we've had the "phenomenon", there's been no convincing evidence whatsoever.

Blaming it "on the coverup" doesn't fly either, as if the government can't keep the lid on more mundane things like Abu Ghraib and black prisons then how could it successfully cover up such a massive thing as the existence of extra terrestrial life?

The simplest explanation is usually the right one, and that's that basically there are no aliens visiting Earth, but rather that it's just an altered version of the same kind of fairy/goblin myths we've had for thousands of years. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's only human beings at work here... no aliens whatsoever.

 

[Shatnertage]

It's a cookbook?

 

[The Castellan]

Being in orbit and doing nothing else for 30 years feels like a waste to me. The shuttle program did not feel like space exploration to me, especially considering how primitive the shuttle is, even when it was first unveiled in the 70's.

But you do understand that our NASA space shuttles are not up in orbit of Earth burning dollar bills, right? Money is never wasted. Its spent. On things. That someone else can spend. It doesn't cease to exist. Who knows what secret government inventions came about because of the dollars we were able to spend on the Space Program?

This all relates to those "How does Trek work without money threads!?" where people fail to understand how an economy can function without currency. If we already are part of some interstellar community, albeit in secret, I doubt Centaurians or whoever are going to accept US dollars anyway in exchange for technology.

I understand that bit, the space program, in it's heyday, brought like a 7-20 times return on each dollar. But what I am saying is where's the exploration of space if all we used for 30 years are those underpowered, dangerous albatross doing a solitaire version of NASCAR? Let's see some real exploration. I mean look at the excitement generated leading to, during and after the moon landing. Plus you wanna give young people role models and a career to inspire to....let's see what's out there, starting with our moon and mars, because, apart from Optimus Prime, robots don't make for role models. Plus I want to see what's out there, screw Brookings, we're not going to go mad upon learning of the evidence of alien life (ie ruins) or alien life itself.

I'm itching to see what's out there.

 

[tighr]

But what I am saying is where's the exploration of space if all we used for 30 years are those underpowered, dangerous albatross doing a solitaire version of NASCAR? Let's see some real exploration.

Well, if your opinion is that the last 30 years have been a waste, it must have been music to your ears that we are retiring that albatross fleet? No more space NASCAR, no more wasted dollars.

It's a cookbook?

+1

Good Quote!

 

[Shatnertage]

^ It's the only sensible thing I could offer.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think the money is a "waste". The money was spent somewhere, and put to good use. It's a fallacy to claim that money is ever "wasted", because for every dollar you spend, that's a dollar someone ELSE has to spend on something else. So I doubt the money was wasted, it was just spent in ways that we don't quite realize yet.

I agree. There have been benefits derived from the space program that we have been enjoying for years, decades even.

My position is this: Our destiny is in space. It's inevitable that we should go there - on a permanent basis. We should not simply waste away on Earth for the rest of human existence. Space is the next great frontier. We must explore it. We must expand.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Von Braun KNEW....I think his past in SS, and their obsession with the occult, like Hitler himself had, led him to this information. And with the 19.5's, tetrahedrons, exploded planet theory, anti-gravity and free energy....no way in hell is it a coincidence, and I never believed in coincidence to begin with, anyhow.

The German national research program suffered terribly under Hitler due to his determination to cleanse Nazi Germany of Jewish influence, and the fact is that you need to use "Jewish science", i.e. Einstein's theory of special and general relativity if you want to get anywhere. A lot of quantum mechanics also depended on Jewish physicists, so again, he kind of shot himself in the foot so that there's not really too much credence to any kind of "secret knowledge" theory.

Also, where's the guts of these theories? Does their math hold up under close examination? How are these things testable? What is their phenomenology and given the prevalence of high energy events in the Cosmic Microwave Background or from gamma-ray bursts, why haven't they manifested themselves yet?

There's a lot of questions here, and I don't think anything here (anti-gravity, etc) can answer these.

 

[The Castellan]

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here when there's just no proof whatsoever of UFOs and alien life.

Most "sightings" are simple cases of people mistaking everyday, natural phenomena for something extraordinary as most people aren't familiar with most of the stuff that's floating around out there in the world. And most of the "nuts and bolts" UFOs are actually more likely to be classified aircraft - things like the US's hypersonic missile program are more than evocative of UFOs such as the Belgian Triangle sightings.

"Alien abductions" can easily be explained as sleep paralysis, and when "implants" have been discovered they've turned out to be such extraordinary materials as calcified cotton from a man's underpants. In the 60 years we've had the "phenomenon", there's been no convincing evidence whatsoever.

Blaming it "on the coverup" doesn't fly either, as if the government can't keep the lid on more mundane things like Abu Ghraib and black prisons then how could it successfully cover up such a massive thing as the existence of extra terrestrial life?

The simplest explanation is usually the right one, and that's that basically there are no aliens visiting Earth, but rather that it's just an altered version of the same kind of fairy/goblin myths we've had for thousands of years. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there's only human beings at work here... no aliens whatsoever.

Your answer is not be all, end all, of it. Like Guatemalans being deliberately infected with nasty illnesses after WW2 to so science experiments on. That was covered up for many years until recently. And if it's nothing at all...why is it with things like the Roswell incident where witnesses said they were threatened to keep quiet, and that their children were threatened (which is an all time low)? Or that kid in UK who tapped into US top secret files (with a dial up connection, as well) and the US wants to throw the book to this kid, and making the UK angry against us....on UFO info....if, as you say, there's nothing there, why would their be a big stink on a kid trying to find the truth, or why the files concerning UFO's be so hush hush? The US govt outta thank the kid for showing their security measures were so easy to crack. Or why so much hush hush on the Kennedy killing and so on if only one man did it? See, it seems.

You need to give me proof it's all a fairy tale. You see, folks like yourself always want such proof from us that can pass even a white glove test, but you have to, in turn give proof that equals it.

And also, like some Youtube posters typed in regards to a UFO video I mentioned,

People fear the possibility that their entire belief systems are flawed. Thats why they become psychologically insecure and why you see so many nasty personal insults in the comments of videos concerning space, nasa, aliens or apollo 11. Look at any video and see the raw fear manifesting as hatred towards strangers in the comments.

and

I guess too many people are scared to death of being free; they want to be told what opinions to hold as that's easy on the brain and fits with what the "boss" is saying. Hence the reason why they fight so hard for their slavery. Such types need our compassion more than anything else.

So, at the risk of a few unpleasant words from the folks described in the above quotes, or hearing the same old "tinfoil hat!" insult, or the odd debunker trying to prove something he or she can't, though thinking their word is higher than anyone who talking about the possibility of anything UFO related, I am going to keep going at it, using the proverbial shovel to dig up any bits of information and knowledge that gets one closer to the truth.

Also, seeing how some of the posts have bee like, so far, I got a feeling those who are interested in continuing this discussion, we might have to Pm each other for our messenger names and communicate to each other that way.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And also, like some Youtube posters typed in regards to a UFO video I mentioned,

People fear the possibility that their entire belief systems are flawed. Thats why they become psychologically insecure and why you see so many nasty personal insults in the comments of videos concerning space, nasa, aliens or apollo 11. Look at any video and see the raw fear manifesting as hatred towards strangers in the comments.

Please, for the love of all that's holy, tell me you were not intending to use YOUTUBE COMMENTS as evidence of your theories...

 

[tighr]

This all smacks of the TNG episode First Contact, where the government decided it was in the best interests of the planet to withhold the information that alien life exists.

 

[The Castellan]

And also, like some Youtube posters typed in regards to a UFO video I mentioned,

People fear the possibility that their entire belief systems are flawed. Thats why they become psychologically insecure and why you see so many nasty personal insults in the comments of videos concerning space, nasa, aliens or apollo 11. Look at any video and see the raw fear manifesting as hatred towards strangers in the comments.

Please, for the love of all that's holy, tell me you were not intending to use YOUTUBE COMMENTS as evidence of your theories...

Whom do you want me to use, then?
Would you like Henry Kissinger, The Queen of England, the guy who makes coffee at NASA, Dick Cheney's attorney? Since you seem to have the standard of what a person should be like and from in order to state their viewpoints, I would like to know since I am obviously wrong in using what some average fellow typed regarding an issue.

 

[The Castellan]

This all smacks of the TNG episode First Contact, where the government decided it was in the best interests of the planet to withhold the information that alien life exists.

You can not deny that is possible. That episode is very akin to the whole concept of Brookings, which is part of NASA. I mean government lies and hides all the time. It's part of our own history. To think we're immune, just because "It's America!" shows how historically ignorant some folks can be.

I mean, look at the past 4 decades:

I am not a crook!
Read my lips...NO....NEW....TAXES!
I did not....have....sexual.....relations.....with....that woman...Miss Lewinsky.
Weapons of mass destruction!
The Economy's just fine!

I mean little things like that are commonplace lies our folks in Washington make all the time, so imagine what they say regarding the big stuff that actually means a damn. Seems like a fair think to think and ask.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Your answer is not be all, end all, of it. Like Guatemalans being deliberately infected with nasty illnesses after WW2 to so science experiments on. That was covered up for many years until recently.

Yes, that's germ warfare experiments. We've known about crazy things governments have been doing for years. People have had odd ideas, but they've all come out over the years.

And if it's nothing at all...why is it with things like the Roswell incident where witnesses said they were threatened to keep quiet, and that their children were threatened (which is an all time low)?

Because the Roswell incident was debris from Project Mogul, a top secret US government program to detect soundwaves from Soviet experiments. Given how paranoid about the red threat the US was then, it's no wonder that they did things like that to keep it secret.

Or that kid in UK who tapped into US top secret files (with a dial up connection, as well) and the US wants to throw the book to this kid, and making the UK angry against us....on UFO info....if, as you say, there's nothing there, why would their be a big stink on a kid trying to find the truth, or why the files concerning UFO's be so hush hush?

Are you talking about Gary McKinnon? He was a guy with aspergers who supposedly did it while high on cannabis. I'd hardly call that a reliable witness. He was lucky enough to find a backdoor, and then left a stupid message on their systems which lead them back to him. Governments get angry about that kind of thing, no UFOs needed.

Or why so much hush hush on the Kennedy killing and so on if only one man did it? See, it seems.

You mean the Kennedy assassination that's been examined for years by not just governments but independent ballistics experts who've found that there's nothing weird about it?

You need to give me proof it's all a fairy tale. You see, folks like yourself always want such proof from us that can pass even a white glove test, but you have to, in turn give proof that equals it.

Given how excitable, suggestible and prone to irrationality people can be, that's pretty much all the proof we need. People see weird things, and then embellish the story. They see a Chinese lantern in the sky from the distance, and think it's a giant spaceship. They see Venus, and think it's a floating disk. They see an unusual plane they've never seen before, and they think it's a ship from another world. The mundane becomes extraordinary in the minds of the uninformed.

So, at the risk of a few unpleasant words from the folks described in the above quotes, or hearing the same old "tinfoil hat!" insult, or the odd debunker trying to prove something he or she can't, though thinking their word is higher than anyone who talking about the possibility of anything UFO related, I am going to keep going at it, using the proverbial shovel to dig up any bits of information and knowledge that gets one closer to the truth.

If I were the USAF and I wanted to keep anything legitimate regarding planes currently being tested at Groom Lake or Dugway, I'd just sit back and let the UFO community spin fantastic tales of beings from outer space and watch as anything genuine gets buried under layer after layer of nonsense. It's the perfect disguise.

Given the amount of crashes that have supposedly happened, where's the bit of alien tech someone saved by getting it before the military got there to cart it off? There's a lot of camera phones out there... where's the amazing video that cannot be proved to be anything else but "alien tech"?

Also, the "mythology" is ludicrous as it is, featuring such wonderful technology as UFOs that can't function in rain. Any rational mind looking at it will see what is self-evident: that UFOs are a fantasy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Castellan, I think the problem here can be summed up into two words: executive summary. As in, you have none. Why don't you work on one?

Also, acting as a kind of man in the middle, taking things back and forth between two different boards, as you evidently intend to do, doesn't seem like an interesting idea to me. I'm sure it's great for you, though, if you're in the middle of things on not one but two boards.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

This is just a bunch of copy-pasted nonsensical spam with no hope of real discussion. I suggest you take up the discussion on Above Top Secret or Enterprise Mission or wherever you got this from originally.

Thread closed. Don't do this again or you will receive a spamming infraction, and for the love of God, if you're going to PM me to complain, condense your complaint down to pamphlet size at most.