Once something is proven to be sentient treating it any way other than human is racist. It is my opinion that Admiral Haftel is a piece of shit.
The way Androids are treated disturbs me.
- Thread starter Draconarius King
- Start date
Haftel may have seemed a bit callous, but that's (at least partly) because we are all used to Data and seeing things from his POV. We're not accustomed to an outsider's perspective. Most viewers would instinctively claim that Data (because he's a main character) is always right and therefore, anyone who challenges him is wrong. Things are rarely that clear cut.
IMHO, Haftel was entirely correct in at least one thing: a starship like the Enterprise is a dangerous place. If something happened, both Data and Lal could have been lost.
Now don't get me wrong, I still agree that it was wrong to attempt to remove Lal from Data's custody, but I can understand why Haftel might have argued for it. He wasn't being racist or anything like that, just considering the bigger picture.
And you'll notice that when Lal begins to break down, Haftel not only offers to help Data repair her, but he is visibly disturbed by her passing. So Haftel is clearly not the emotionless martinet (or stereotypical "evil Admiral") many like to claim he is.
IMHO, Haftel was entirely correct in at least one thing: a starship like the Enterprise is a dangerous place. If something happened, both Data and Lal could have been lost.
Now don't get me wrong, I still agree that it was wrong to attempt to remove Lal from Data's custody, but I can understand why Haftel might have argued for it. He wasn't being racist or anything like that, just considering the bigger picture.
And you'll notice that when Lal begins to break down, Haftel not only offers to help Data repair her, but he is visibly disturbed by her passing. So Haftel is clearly not the emotionless martinet (or stereotypical "evil Admiral") many like to claim he is.
^ Oh yes, Azetbur is one to talk, isn't she?
Show me one race in the Klingon Empire which is not, in fact, Klingon and...oh, wait...
Show me one race in the Klingon Empire which is not, in fact, Klingon and...oh, wait...
^ Oh yes, Azetbur is one to talk, isn't she?
Show me one race in the Klingon Empire who isn't actually a Klingon and...oh, wait...
Rura Pente sure had a lot of non-Klingons...though that doesn't exactly help the situation.
^ Oh yes, Azetbur is one to talk, isn't she?
Show me one race in the Klingon Empire which is not, in fact, Klingon and...oh, wait...
Kriosians. (There's no shortage of CONQUERED races/planets in the Empire!)
Well I would have to disagree with you, while it’s good that he came to the position that he did after witnessing firsthand (that only shows he’s not a psychopath) but I would argue that he did not truly believe that the androids were sentient although claiming otherwise. His outright callousness was inappropriate and none of his arguments were in good faith such as when he brought up his own children when it was clearly portrayed as nothing more than a superficial propagation. Also I wouldn’t trust the Federation researchers to not abuse the androids. I think there’s a good moral argument as to why it might be just better that Data was destroyed rather than be given back to the scientists who wish to dissect him. Clearly they aren’t ready to be dealing with artificial life. Also I’m not necessarily biased towards Data or any of the main characters for that matter I’m willing to listen to opposition but to me this man was clearly wrong from the start and I predicted the show felt the same way.
I personally think that once Data had created Lal, finally doing what only Noonian Soong had done, he and Lal should both have gone with Haftel. Lal to be studied, and Data to lead the effort to produce more Soong type androids. Maybe Dr. Maddox could have joined him on Earth, and he could see a positronic brain constructed from the ground up, maybe shared his own perspective.
I can imagine the conversation...
LAL: "I don't want to leave home, Father."
DATA: "It will be all right, Lal. Wherever we go, we will be together."
I can imagine the conversation...
LAL: "I don't want to leave home, Father."
DATA: "It will be all right, Lal. Wherever we go, we will be together."
Speaking of "androids" may be a bit misleading here, as those things come in a bewildering variety. Assigning "human rights" to them might be as silly as assigning those to cows or gods. Which is different from saying that they should get no rights - cows and gods just need different types of rights for their different types of sentience. Just like the young or the disabled get different rights in the human world in order to get even.
Data's sentience is basically the same as human, as we can tell, and within those tolerances where humans today get generic rather than tailored rights. Nevertheless, there are obvious differences. Data doesn't really need the right not to be hanged, drawn and quartered, because such a treatment would do him no harm. It then becomes a valid matter of argument whether he needs, say, habeas corpus as pertains to the treatment (cf. Lore and "Descent"). Likewise, age discrimination would be a different issue for those who live for 90 years and those who might live for 90,000...
But "treating sentient beings the way humans are treated" is a pretty disgusting idea. It's basically telling the legless to use the stairs.
Timo Saloniemi
Data's sentience is basically the same as human, as we can tell, and within those tolerances where humans today get generic rather than tailored rights. Nevertheless, there are obvious differences. Data doesn't really need the right not to be hanged, drawn and quartered, because such a treatment would do him no harm. It then becomes a valid matter of argument whether he needs, say, habeas corpus as pertains to the treatment (cf. Lore and "Descent"). Likewise, age discrimination would be a different issue for those who live for 90 years and those who might live for 90,000...
But "treating sentient beings the way humans are treated" is a pretty disgusting idea. It's basically telling the legless to use the stairs.
Timo Saloniemi
Sentience should come with certain rights.. Rights of body autonomy, Right to Exist, Right not to be murdered, Right to self determination, and other seamingly natural rights that any species would have.
Find a new species, or created, and the first thing you do is lock it up to be studied is in all enstences Wrong.
Find a new species, or created, and the first thing you do is lock it up to be studied is in all enstences Wrong.
What about using the transporter to separate it?
For some reason everyone uses the transporter like it’s no big deal personally I would never use it unless I wanted to kill myself
Well thanks a lot... now if my toaster breaks, I won't be able to just toss it in the trash because I'll feel like I just threw away Data.
Well thanks a lot... now if my toaster breaks, I won't be able to just toss it in the trash because I'll feel like I just threw away Data.
My work here is done!
Well thanks a lot... now if my toaster breaks, I won't be able to just toss it in the trash because I'll feel like I just threw away Data.
Depends how annoying it is. Case in point this little bastard had it coming.
Not as much racist, but perhaps speciesist since Picard had never threatened to rip apart a person holding some bit of information, yet incessantly threatened to have Data completely disassembled for the same offense under the same if not sufficiently similar set of circumstances - oh and the entire gaggle of ugly water-meatbags around him doesn't bat a single eyelash over it, much less a collective one -- despite none of them being Vulcan, who would otherwise find something to say about it anyway. Probably, for this instance they'd just say it's a logical thing to do. :\
Yup. Humans and Betazoids still have issues... makes the crew's haughtiness in "The Neutral Zone" and "Lonely Among Us" seem positively tame and civilized and cordial by comparison.
Yup. Humans and Betazoids still have issues... makes the crew's haughtiness in "The Neutral Zone" and "Lonely Among Us" seem positively tame and civilized and cordial by comparison.
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