The Walking Dead Season 5

[Kosh Naranek]

Aaron just seems too nice. Perhaps he is just making nice to be in with the new more capable members of his little society, but he is almost like an eager puppy. Hopefully he is just a nice guy.

That little neighborhood get-to-together seemed surreal.

...and I did a double take when Maggie was there with Deanna. I almost did not recognize the actress for a split second.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Hasn't Rick's group been under surveillance for a long time though. Longer perhaps than even the show has suggested and Aaron's arrival comes at the very arse end of that surveillance. Plus I imagine they're under heavy surveillance at the house in the ASZ too. Deanna knows exactly who they're dealing with which is exactly why she wanted them. She knows that if they're under threat, they kill, not debate, just kill, which is why she's happy to let Glenn punch her dumb ass son in the face. The alternative is, Rick's group kill him and take the place there and then (she knows that)

She obviously has enemies out there and knows they're coming......she needs soldiers

Her poker speech is purely about saying.....I know you're very dangerous people BUT I think your humanity is still just about intact enough to risk letting you become my army. I think she even knows that they will eventually take over

It is still a wild assumption on her part; no matter why she desires the strength of Rick's group, a few hours of watching them in the woods says nothing about their true characters. They have no idea that a part of Michonne's past included being a "monster" with jaw-less walkers on chains, Carol's abuse from Ed (and how that changed her), Rick's acts against Joe's gang or Terminus (in the church). At any moment, Deanna's master plan could backfire--not just in the potential of a takeover, but in an outright slaughter.

At present, even cracked Dawn seems like a better leader / tactician...and that's not good.

Isn't part of what makes a good poker player the ability to mislead others about what one has and don't have?

So her claiming poker abilities will do one of the following: 1) Dissuade half-baked lying and get to trust faster. 2) Draw out the evil deceiver, as they start to make moves or 3) reveal a smart group who can help preserve ASZ

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Hasn't Rick's group been under surveillance for a long time though. Longer perhaps than even the show has suggested and Aaron's arrival comes at the very arse end of that surveillance. Plus I imagine they're under heavy surveillance at the house in the ASZ too. Deanna knows exactly who they're dealing with which is exactly why she wanted them. She knows that if they're under threat, they kill, not debate, just kill, which is why she's happy to let Glenn punch her dumb ass son in the face. The alternative is, Rick's group kill him and take the place there and then (she knows that)

She obviously has enemies out there and knows they're coming......she needs soldiers

Her poker speech is purely about saying.....I know you're very dangerous people BUT I think your humanity is still just about intact enough to risk letting you become my army. I think she even knows that they will eventually take over

It is still a wild assumption on her part; no matter why she desires the strength of Rick's group, a few hours of watching them in the woods says nothing about their true characters. They have no idea that a part of Michonne's past included being a "monster" with jaw-less walkers on chains, Carol's abuse from Ed (and how that changed her), Rick's acts against Joe's gang or Terminus (in the church). At any moment, Deanna's master plan could backfire--not just in the potential of a takeover, but in an outright slaughter.

At present, even cracked Dawn seems like a better leader / tactician...and that's not good.

Isn't part of what makes a good poker player the ability to mislead others about what one has and don't have?

So her claiming poker abilities will do one of the following: 1) Dissuade half-baked lying and get to trust faster. 2) Draw out the evil deceiver, as they start to make moves or 3) reveal a smart group who can help preserve ASZ

If ASZ's supplies and ability to defend themselves are limited, letting a group in for "testing" is far too dangerous. No matter what early surveillance told Aaron, they have no idea what Rick's group had to do, other than Rick stating--in a sterile way--that he's had to kill people.

Would Deanna think that is acceptable if she knew how Terminus really ended in the church? The way Rick killed Joe or the would-be rapist?

 

[Morpheus 02]

It is still a wild assumption on her part; no matter why she desires the strength of Rick's group, a few hours of watching them in the woods says nothing about their true characters. They have no idea that a part of Michonne's past included being a "monster" with jaw-less walkers on chains, Carol's abuse from Ed (and how that changed her), Rick's acts against Joe's gang or Terminus (in the church). At any moment, Deanna's master plan could backfire--not just in the potential of a takeover, but in an outright slaughter.

At present, even cracked Dawn seems like a better leader / tactician...and that's not good.

Isn't part of what makes a good poker player the ability to mislead others about what one has and don't have?

So her claiming poker abilities will do one of the following: 1) Dissuade half-baked lying and get to trust faster. 2) Draw out the evil deceiver, as they start to make moves or 3) reveal a smart group who can help preserve ASZ

If ASZ's supplies and ability to defend themselves are limited, letting a group in for "testing" is far too dangerous. No matter what early surveillance told Aaron, they have no idea what Rick's group had to do, other than Rick stating--in a sterile way--that he's had to kill people.

Would Deanna think that is acceptable if she knew how Terminus really ended in the church? The way Rick killed Joe or the would-be rapist?

i think they passed the basic test -- are they still basically good human beings. We saw several times with Joe's group, that they're animals...not just what Darryl saw, but also Rick.

But despite the rough life..they still care for one another. Do we know how much Aaron saw? I think they way they treated each other after these rough moments (like Abraham)... NOT what a vcious group of killers do...but rather good people who've been through a lot, but don't want to give up.

Regarding the way Rick killed Joe -- she would understand. Rick was unarmed (and still tied up?), and they HAD to kill the gang, since they were going to be killed anyway. That was just about the ONLY way Rick could incapacitate Joe.

And killing a child rapist...in the heat of the moment...she'd pardon Rick for that. Easily.


And Terminus group -- didn't they make it CLEAR they were going to kill Rick's group? Very borderline, but again, it wasn't that they attacked a bunch of random strangers, or weak defenseless people. They stopped a clear threat.

And when i meant testing..it was more like...how fast can we cut through the "checking each other" stuff and get down to helping each other not just survive, but thrive.

 

[Mojochi]

Hell, Gabriel is in the teaser for next week saying "Satan disguises himself as the angel of light. That false light will destroy everything" Who do you think he's talking about?

It could be Carol, or it could be just about the group in general. I kinda think it's about Rick, especially after he gave the speech about how they shouldn't let people in, and how he was talking about taking over Alexandria. Gabriel has not yet forgotten about the church massacre.

I'm clumping Rick in with this Carol thing. They are both operating some cloak & dagger shit now. It's Rick's group (Some of them) who are underhandedly coming into this situation with ulterior motives now, & though it's still too soon to say that the townies here don't have them as well, the whole scenario reads like this might be the precipice of being when "our" people are the ones being uncivilized for a change. The poles had to switch eventually, from a dramatic standpoint

This town is unsettling because it's a "Too good to be true" proposition, & we have been conditioned after 5 seasons to see that & be suspicious. How long did we expect before they took advantage of that factor, to play us against our expectations?

It's highly likely that some of the suspicious behavior of the townies is just normal drama, like Jesse just has a bad marriage & Deanna, though she bolsters & brags & dreams is really just struggling to keep it together


None of that is necessarily underhanded conspiracies. It's just life, and it could be easily misinterpreted by people who have spent 2 years with danger around every corner & in every face they see. On TWD they likened it to soldiers being unable to reintegrate

Ironically, it may turn out Daryl is the best adept at integrating here, because he was always an outsider having to fit in where he could. Rick & Carol are more broken by the effects of the last 2 years, because it has separated them from who they were in an extreme way, from which there may be no reintegration. I just worry there may be an internal showdown, like between Carol & Daryl

I mean think about it. The only real way to unify these two groups & present a believable trust at this point, is if one group turns on one of its own for the betterment of all, & I have a bad feeling that's going to fall to "our" group to do, & Carol might end up being the fall guy

We haven't had something like this since Shane really, & it feels like that's what's in the pipeline, because we're 3 episodes out now. This finally may be Carol's epitaph.

 

[Galileo7]

That Carol scene was great. Part of me thinks though that it was more than just a threat. She made it very descriptive and brutal sounding so that if the kid did tell, people would just know it was made up, knowing how "friendly" Carol is.

...

True.

 

[davejames]

I know Sasha is clearly suffering from PTSD, but I honestly couldn't blame her for reacting to the party the way she did, and to how utterly oblivious the townspeople seemed to be to the outside world. You really do get the sense most of these people have no clue how truly bleak and awful it is out there, or have been in there so long they've completely forgot.

It's one thing to try to establish a better life in a safe environment (like our people did at the farm or in the prison), but it's another to live in complete denial of the apocalyptic world outside. And that's clearly where Alexandria has gone wrong.

It's also interesting to see how dark and creepy Rick is becoming in this environment. You get the sense the place is really starting to mess with his head a bit, and that he's almost like a caged animal now. It's only when he's back outside killing zombies that he starts acting like his normal self again (or at least more normal self).

 

[Mojochi]

Anyone else want to keep telling me that Carol's façade is going to keep going unnoticed? Hell, even the Talking Dead people were echoing what I've been saying about Deanna maybe cluing into Carol's BS. Carol is playing with fire. Hell, Gabriel is in the teaser for next week saying "Satan disguises himself as the angel of light. That false light will destroy everything" Who do you think he's talking about?

Who says he's not talking about a new enemy, or the biggest deceiver of all--someone who was a politician? Deanna does nothing but sell, sell, sell some glorious community/future. Like the Governor, to newcomers, the image of a hearty leader fighting to restore society is all BS, as the true nature of the outpost is revealed, and let's face it, there's nothing remotely normal or right about the ASZ.

Well, of course it's possible he's talking about someone from Alexandria, or a new group of people, or even the actual Satan. lol

It's all theoretical right now, but honestly what is the likelihood of any of those possibilities versus the likelihood that he's talking about the people he's been traveling with, gotten to know, & been slightly wary of the whole time? It's presumable to say he doesn't yet truly know of deceptions being perpetrated by any others, (Nor has he ordinarily been suspicious of new people in that way) but it's fair to say that because he's gained inclusion with Rick's group, he may shortly become aware of his own group's nefarious plotting & being a spiritual man, doesn't necessarily approve of it

My overall point has been that Carol's "invisible" games will eventually make trouble (Worse than threatening little kids anyway) when people figure her out, catch her, or her own people object. It's something the conjecture on TWD echoed (That Deanna might be on to her in some way already) & the general feel of next week's teaser seemed to imply (Of course not ruling out that sometimes teasers purposefully mislead the audience)

It's just a theory of mine, but I think Carol's espionage is not going unaddressed much longer

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm clumping Rick in with this Carol thing. They are both operating some cloak & dagger shit now. It's Rick's group (Some of them) who are underhandedly coming into this situation with ulterior motives now, & though it's still too soon to say that the townies here don't have them as well, the whole scenario reads like this might be the precipice of being when "our" people are the ones being uncivilized for a change. The poles had to switch eventually, from a dramatic standpoint

I think the townies are one, large plot, with the party being the honey-covered flies pulling the Rick gang into the center of a web. Of the many wildcards that stand to explode is Jesse's husband (see the Talking Dead preview of the next episode for reference), who may toss the master plan to the winds in favor of his own interest. This becomes a greater threat if the town is under the control of unseen, darker forces.

None of that is necessarily underhanded conspiracies. It's just life, and it could be easily misinterpreted by people who have spent 2 years with danger around every corner & in every face they see. On TWD they likened it to soldiers being unable to reintegrate

That would sell--if Deanna and the rest were not in campaign / bait mode. No one completely unaware of the outside situation (dangers, what it takes to survive) would throw such a "normal" party, along with encouraging Rick to drink, repeating the same pasta maker script, etc.

At the end of the episode, Rick moving his hand away from the hidden gun is giving him a false sense of normalcy--exactly where Deanna wants him. That, along with his interests in a married woman all has the earmarks of Rick being massaged into losing his edge, or the sense to read/respond to danger as it builds around him--the very thing concerning Carl & Carol.

Ironically, it may turn out Daryl is the best adept at integrating here, because he was always an outsider having to fit in where he could. Rick & Carol are more broken by the effects of the last 2 years, because it has separated them from who they were in an extreme way, from which there may be no reintegration. I just worry there may be an internal showdown, like between Carol & Daryl

I mean think about it. The only real way to unify these two groups & present a believable trust at this point, is if one group turns on one of its own for the betterment of all, & I have a bad feeling that's going to fall to "our" group to do, & Carol might end up being the fall guy

I can see a rift between the two, but the series will not have Carol being on the losing end for a second time. Everyone owes their lives to her, so any survival/life decision made can't place her in the "uncontrollable villain" role again, unless they want the rest to appear to be the most ungrateful asses of all time. If the shoe crosses that line, they will kill the appeal of the so-called heroes, which is not good drama, "edgy" or anything else.

It just hurts the characters.

Daryl: I see him being like Andrea as she first encountered Woodbury: buying into the BS, while her friend was being hunted in the woods.

i think they passed the basic test -- are they still basically good human beings. We saw several times with Joe's group, that they're animals...not just what Darryl saw, but also Rick.

Well, that's the issue: Deanna thinks Rick's group are rough customers, so one can imagine they did not survive this long (and most exhibiting grim personalities) into the ZA without being brutal. To assume anything less is suicidal...unless Deanna is confident in her plot (or has outside support).

Regarding the way Rick killed Joe -- she would understand. Rick was unarmed (and still tied up?), and they HAD to kill the gang, since they were going to be killed anyway. That was just about the ONLY way Rick could incapacitate Joe.

Would she understand? Or would she mark Rick (as the guilty party) for elimination, hoping she can use (or abuse) the rest?

And Terminus group -- didn't they make it CLEAR they were going to kill Rick's group? Very borderline, but again, it wasn't that they attacked a bunch of random strangers, or weak defenseless people. They stopped a clear threat.

It was not clear until the opening of season 5. In the season 4 finale, rick slapped away the plate of meat, but his suspicions were not confirmed until they were moments from death.

And when i meant testing..it was more like...how fast can we cut through the "checking each other" stuff and get down to helping each other not just survive, but thrive.

I have a feeling you will see great losses on both sides before they ever find themselves in the position to thrive.

 

[yenny]

Rick is a Law Inforcement officer. He mostly likely reacting to the way both Pete and Jessie is acting towards him. He've probably expericence and had to arrest guys like Pete. Eventhough, Pete isn't Acting and talking aggressed. But he is using aggressed gestures towards Rick and possible Jessie. Of course, Rick haven't had a woman since Lori Die and has a likeing toward Jessie. But he knows that she is marry and will react if he catched Pete hitting Her or one of their kids.

 

[Trekker4747]

 

[Morpheus 02]

I'm clumping Rick in with this Carol thing. They are both operating some cloak & dagger shit now. It's Rick's group (Some of them) who are underhandedly coming into this situation with ulterior motives now, & though it's still too soon to say that the townies here don't have them as well, the whole scenario reads like this might be the precipice of being when "our" people are the ones being uncivilized for a change. The poles had to switch eventually, from a dramatic standpoint

I think the townies are one, large plot, with the party being the honey-covered flies pulling the Rick gang into the center of a web. Of the many wildcards that stand to explode is Jesse's husband (see the Talking Dead preview of the next episode for reference), who may toss the master plan to the winds in favor of his own interest. This becomes a greater threat if the town is under the control of unseen, darker forces.

None of that is necessarily underhanded conspiracies. It's just life, and it could be easily misinterpreted by people who have spent 2 years with danger around every corner & in every face they see. On TWD they likened it to soldiers being unable to reintegrate

That would sell--if Deanna and the rest were not in campaign / bait mode. No one completely unaware of the outside situation (dangers, what it takes to survive) would throw such a "normal" party, along with encouraging Rick to drink, repeating the same pasta maker script, etc.

At the end of the episode, Rick moving his hand away from the hidden gun is giving him a false sense of normalcy--exactly where Deanna wants him. That, along with his interests in a married woman all has the earmarks of Rick being massaged into losing his edge, or the sense to read/respond to danger as it builds around him--the very thing concerning Carl & Carol.



I can see a rift between the two, but the series will not have Carol being on the losing end for a second time. Everyone owes their lives to her, so any survival/life decision made can't place her in the "uncontrollable villain" role again, unless they want the rest to appear to be the most ungrateful asses of all time. If the shoe crosses that line, they will kill the appeal of the so-called heroes, which is not good drama, "edgy" or anything else.

It just hurts the characters.

Daryl: I see him being like Andrea as she first encountered Woodbury: buying into the BS, while her friend was being hunted in the woods.







Well, that's the issue: Deanna thinks Rick's group are rough customers, so one can imagine they did not survive this long (and most exhibiting grim personalities) into the ZA without being brutal. To assume anything less is suicidal...unless Deanna is confident in her plot (or has outside support).

i think there is LINE between brutal and tough. She's seen in politics, and probably with military officers as well. You can fight hard and STILL be human...now, there's a limit to that....and having ASZ to at least rest for minute, and recharge, is what just about EVERY human would need, given the circumstances.

Would she understand? Or would she mark Rick (as the guilty party) for elimination, hoping she can use (or abuse) the rest?

And Terminus group -- didn't they make it CLEAR they were going to kill Rick's group? Very borderline, but again, it wasn't that they attacked a bunch of random strangers, or weak defenseless people. They stopped a clear threat.

It was not clear until the opening of season 5. In the season 4 finale, rick slapped away the plate of meat, but his suspicions were not confirmed until they were moments from death.

No, i meant when the Terminus crew went hunting for Rick in season 5...at THAT point, they were a clear threat, and killing them at that point was the right thing to do. Even if it was in a church, it was justified.

The deception done wasn't that the Terminus people were legitimately trying to make peace -- Termites were tryign to sneak up and KILL Rick's group.

Rick & co. simply anticipated and responded appropriately.
The number of whacks -- questionable.... but a LOT closer to "the line" than Joe & Co. or the Termites.

And when i meant testing..it was more like...how fast can we cut through the "checking each other" stuff and get down to helping each other not just survive, but thrive.

I have a feeling you will see great losses on both sides before they ever find themselves in the position to thrive.

I think there WILL be losses...but because they're busy being suspicious instead of hunting for Wolves, who will invade & destroy the Safe Zone. People will be homeless with nowhere to go. And anyone left will turn to Rick & Co. to figure out their next move. I think that is what Deanna is anticipating, and needs Rick & Co. in the ASZ to build trust, so when chaos COULD come, they can still survive. (I.e. plan B...Plan A is that she hopes Rick can prepare for, and stave off, an invasion of humans).

 

[Turd Ferguson]

That was a good episode and Carol was creepy as fuck with her speech to the kid. That got me wondering (I know the writers aren't much in the way of clever), wouldn't it be neat if they skipped the Negan character and put Carol in the same role? It wouldn't make much sense to have two psychos running around (one outside of Alexandria, the other inside). They would just be trying to out-crazy Carol, who is already trying to out-crazy the Governor for the spot of craziest character on the show.

It would be interesting to see a good person fall to become an outright villain kind of like a Walking Dead version of Anakin Skywalker.

 

[Trekker4747]

My understanding is that from the comics Negan is pretty damn big character to just gloss-over or morph Carol into. Not saying this isn't the case, just that I doubt it considering it seems the show is more-or-less tracking with the comics more or less. In a broad sense, maybe, but making Negan from Carol would be a big divergence.

I've seen a lot of people making speculation based on the "clues" in the episode. The M/W on the Walker's head, the "Morgan" street Rick walks down in the episode, etc. I don't think these clues are anything significant as far as clues going down the road from here, especially in regards to Morgan. This show's never been too much on the clues for what's going on, this isn't Lost.

The most "subtle" it gets is ominous husband smoking ominously on the porch saying ominous things.

So I don't think "Morgan Street" or the upside down "W" is going to mean anything in the long run. Hell, we already know Morgan is out there, but reached the church months after our group left it so he's still way out there. And we know there's a group out there called "The Wolves" so they're the ones doing the carving on the walker skulls, the W-as-M is at most a dual nod to two running plot threads out there.

But it can't be Morgan who's carving the letters into walker heads. We know he's been in the Atlanta area and is likely following our group from there to Alexandria.

The walkers we've encountered with the "W/M"s on their heads are badly decomposed. They're, for want of a better term, "currently decomposed." The show has established that the walker bodies decompose slowly, months after the apocalypse started the walkers all more-or-less still looked like people. They currently are much-more corpse-like. So the W/M Walkers had to have been killed around the time of the start of everything or near the beginning. If they were killed recently they'd look far less corpse-like and more like the walkers we saw at the beginning of the show; being "new" ones.

So these walkers are killed by a local Virginia threat not Morgan.

 

[kitik]

Ironically, it may turn out Daryl is the best adept at integrating here, because he was always an outsider having to fit in where he could.

That's an interesting point. Daryl has always been an outsider, so this is just standard fare for him. I think one thing we were also seeing with Daryl is that he did not want to become emotionally invested in even more people. He does not enjoy losing the few friends and family he has, and in order to avoid those painful feelings, he just didn't want to get close to any more people.

 

[hux]

Is it wrong that the more Carol and Rick become truly creepy, disturbing and sinister individuals, the more I like them. I'm starting to get that feeling like I'm being preached to by this show. Like they're deliberately turning people into monsters and making me cheer with each step they take towards their personal darkness (breaking badness you might call it)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That was a good episode and Carol was creepy as fuck with her speech to the kid. That got me wondering (I know the writers aren't much in the way of clever), wouldn't it be neat if they skipped the Negan character and put Carol in the same role? It wouldn't make much sense to have two psychos running around (one outside of Alexandria, the other inside). They would just be trying to out-crazy Carol, who is already trying to out-crazy the Governor for the spot of craziest character on the show.

Adding to that, Carol is simply not insane or evil. Unlike the Governor, who killed for entirely unjustified reasons, such as stealing possessions / removing "threats" to his authority (National Guard unit / pilot), torture (Andrea, if the bruises on her face were an indicator) set walkers against the living, and outright murder (Merle, Milton, et al), Carol acts with no malice, greed or malevolent thought.

For the WD fans (on other boards) who claim to have "boiling blood" and "rage" over Carol's scare tactic, they conveniently skip over how motive is everything. Fans of this kind throw the Lizzie incident in as some sort of "proof," but skip over the fact Lizzie was beyond help, and would continue to murder in order to prove walkers were just "different" --not cannibalistic corpses.

i think there is LINE between brutal and tough. She's seen in politics, and probably with military officers as well. You can fight hard and STILL be human...now, there's a limit to that....and having ASZ to at least rest for minute, and recharge, is what just about EVERY human would need, given the circumstances.

I think her humanity falls in line with Sasha's assessment of the party: it is not real.

No, i meant when the Terminus crew went hunting for Rick in season 5...at THAT point, they were a clear threat, and killing them at that point was the right thing to do. Even if it was in a church, it was justified.

Rick & co. simply anticipated and responded appropriately. The number of whacks -- questionable.... but a LOT closer to "the line" than Joe & Co. or the Termites.

Well, i've covered this before, but once Rick's group forced the Termites to surrender, they had more weapons and ammunition (if one believed Rick's "ammo" line). At that point, each could have recieved a single shot to the head, instead of hacking and bludgeoning them to a bloody, torn death.

I think there WILL be losses...but because they're busy being suspicious instead of hunting for Wolves, who will invade & destroy the Safe Zone. People will be homeless with nowhere to go. And anyone left will turn to Rick & Co. to figure out their next move. I think that is what Deanna is anticipating, and needs Rick & Co. in the ASZ to build trust, so when chaos COULD come, they can still survive. (I.e. plan B...Plan A is that she hopes Rick can prepare for, and stave off, an invasion of humans).

Rick's group have been surviving together through several threats, but I wonder when the rift will happen: if the Wolves attack, but are beaten back, will some of Rick's group become hardline in their own idea of survival, thus wanting to do it their own way (i.e. finish the job), or will some finally throw their hands up, and want to run to the hills (wherever that is) to live an isolated life?

 

[hux]

http://lerageshirts.com/product/carol-cookies-shirt-walking-dead/

 

[Trekker4747]

Is it wrong that the more Carol and Rick become truly creepy, disturbing and sinister individuals, the more I like them. I'm starting to get that feeling like I'm being preached to by this show. Like they're deliberately turning people into monsters and making me cheer with each step they take towards their personal darkness (breaking badness you might call it)

I think it's a touch strong to say Rick is becoming a "truly creepy, disturbing and sinister, individual." He's on some level or other he's trying to connect and reconnect with society, somewhat here. He did hesitate a bit in reaching for the gun Carol offered, and he's connecting with blond-lady. He's still got a dark side and dark impulses but he's not all that sinister or anything of the sort.

Carol's gone of the rails with her little speech to the kid and doing her little cover-ops. Which isn't going to go unnoticed.

Rick and Carol both have alternative motives and certainly don't trust what is going on here but both are on very different paths.

 

[DarthTom]

Carol's gone of the rails with her little speech to the kid and doing her little cover-ops. Which isn't going to go unnoticed.

Agreed. No doubt the ensuing drama will be the kid telling his mother anyway what she said. Carol is on another trajectory to get booted from the community.