The Walking Dead Season 5

[Velocity]

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Eugene's lie was running thin, running into the Atlanta group punched a hole in his tank and was causing his lie to hemorrhage and he just couldn't maintain it anymore.

I actually like him as a character okay (he's odd enough to be entertaining and, come on, mullet) so it'll be interesting to see where he goes from here and gets back in the good graces of the group he's with. Thing is, the lie may not have been entirely necessary.

I think the fact that his lie was getting more and more people killed became too much for him. He named all the people who had died and it was an impressive list. Abraham's determination to see the mission through no matter what the cost finally made Eugene come clean. He wasn't such a bad guy; just using what poor pathetic skills he had to stay alive. I think we will see in flashbacks that he was bullied and intimidated all his life. He's probably pretty smart but what kind of idiot tells someone he's already pissed off that "I'm a lot smarter than you are"?

 

[Mojochi]

It really made everyone else on the show like like idiots for ever buying his story.

I second that. I'm also a little worried that this may mark the beginning of a further degrading of the longstanding characters' intelligence for the sake of highlighting the smarts of Eugene.

The fact is, these people we've already had aren't alive only because they are strong, but also because THEY are smart. They built an entire compound, & lived there at length, and only lost it because of a maniac with a tank. You know who's smart? Morgan, who looks to be coming back. That dude went off his rocker & still had one of the most elaborate camps imaginable. Michonne walked the open terrain with nothing more than a blade & two dummies. Did Eugene do any of those things? No, all he did was BS & toss out a parlor trick or too so far

I can't really buy into this “Smartness” that Eugene is boasting about, unless they do some seriously impressive moves with him. My fear is that those moves will come at the expense of the others looking dimwitted, which has been a growing complaint of mine already

I don't read the comic, but I wonder if the big flaw here is that character arcing requires much more realism in motion picture compared to graphic novel. It isn't enough to just say” OK now all these folks get on a bus to D.C. because Abe wants them to” In live action drama with actual people “Bringing these characters to life”, the people have to have tangible motivations that jive with who they are. They have to step out of 2 dimensions into 3 and be wholly rounded human beings, otherwise we'll feel betrayed by their behavior, because they aren't acting like a real person. They're just acting like a character plopped into the current plot, for the plot's sake. It's the same reason people have been griping about Maggie's indifference to Beth's status. It makes no sense for her to be unconcerned

The graphic novel is a medium for plots, where good character development is there to aid in that story telling. Modern serial television drama is a medium for characters, where the plots are the vehicle by which we grow these characters. Every time they want to steer the plot to something from the novel, I feel a blatant yank on numerous characters' developmental chains. They got to get away from that.

If it means leaving behind some of what is in the comic, then so be it. Maybe we can course correct to some of the cooler things eventually, but it has to be organic. The novel is print & pics on a page. The show is living out there on the air. It has to sail with its own wind, or it will frustrate its viewers

 

[bbjeg]

In everyone else's defence, they kinda had to believe Eugene. What kind of man would lie to a soldier that would (has) beat the crap out of him if (when) it turns out he was lying. Second, there was no way to disprove that he knows how to cure the outbreak. It's not like they had a lab somewhere for him to test his cure. Yes, the guy had a mullet but that doesn't mean he's not a scientist.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

He also says he was part of the Human Genome Project which was finished at a point likely before he would have been around to be part of it.

To be fair to him, though, I'm not sure his rigging of the flash-grenade to blow open the railcar door ever got a chance to work or fail. I don't think he completely got a chance to do it.

I think this is true; Carol's attack probably interrupted his rig, as the captives were preparing for a fight.

I wonder what Shane would have said to Eugene if he were still around? Or would he still be rubbing his head and ranting about going to Fort Benning?

Two things.

1. Shane never controlled his rage long enough to have a rational thought. He had tunnel vision about Lori's butt, so every thought was about crafting a situation where he would be able to "claim" her. As aunitehill pointed out, Shane would just "Otis" Eugene, and offer yet another eyebrow raising excuse.

2. Shane & Fort Benning: it seems few were immune to fantasies and/or pipe dreams. For as much as Shane accused Rick & Hershel of not living in reality, Shane's Fort Benning idea was fraught with fantasy couched in disaster. With no form of updated communication, he was basing his great plan on old news. In a ZA world, old news means potential sanctuaries are overrun with walkers.

In fact, ill-fated Pete Dolgen (killed by the Governor in season four's "Dead Weight" ) served at Fort Benning, but left when the place fell, which means at some point, the military was overwhelmed and/or the place was too abandoned to secure, which means Shane would have dragged the group to a possible death trap, with limited resources (gas) to use for their escape.

So, after 4 seasons, I cannot think of any main or supporting character that has the winning edge in the Avoid Dangerous, Unproven Survival Schemes Sweepstakes. Well, Sasha wanted to find another place, and avoid Terminus (smart), while Carol & Tyreese would have been happy at the grove...if not for you know who.

 

[Silvercrest]

Michonne should probably win that because she was right about Woodbury. On the other hand, she wasn't any friendlier about the prison. That was all because she was in her Surly Antisocial Badass phase, a place that she's admitted she doesn't want to go back to.

I think the problem is that you only win the ADUSS Sweepstakes by turning into such a jerk that no one wants to know you.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I don't read the comic, but I wonder if the big flaw here is that character arcing requires much more realism in motion picture compared to graphic novel.

It's been a while since I read the comics, but I feel like the portrayal of Eugene is a lot different. He didn't come off as funny or clueless like he does in the show. He seemed more believable (and his mullet excuse was a lot better). On the show, he really isn't presented as believable at all.

Plus, the people in the comics hadn't seen the CDC, and never heard anything about D.C. The only distrustful people they met at the point of deciding to go to D.C. were the people from Woodbury. There wasn't yet Terminus, the claimers, Randall's group, etc. There's a lot more on the show that lends towards them needing to be more skeptical. But Scott Gimple doesn't really seem to see that. He seems to want to shoehorn in stories that don't work anymore, simply for the sake of honoring the comics.

 

[Trekker4747]

^^^

I think the CDC was done more for "our" benefit as a means to explain what is going on without having to do it in a manner that was too out of place than it was for the characters to truly learn anything about what is going on. (Besides the "everyone turns" thing which they would have figured out sooner or later anyway.)

So I guess it can make an ounce or two of sense they're not using what they learned at the CDC in regards to the state of the world and the most of the disease-research centers of the world were either stumped by the outbreak or simply ran out of juice to continue to study it.

Shane never controlled his rage long enough to have a rational thought. He had tunnel vision about Lori's butt,

Now, now. Lori didn't have a butt.

(For the record, I love Sarah Wayne Callies and think she is a beautiful woman but she was perhaps a "touch" skinny in TWD compared to how she looked in "Prison Break." But, as good looking as she may be. She doesn't have a butt. )

Michonne should probably win that because she was right about Woodbury. On the other hand, she wasn't any friendlier about the prison. That was all because she was in her Surly Antisocial Badass phase, a place that she's admitted she doesn't want to go back to.

I'd argue Michonne trusted the prison a heck of a lot more than she trusted Woodbury, Rick a lot more than she trusted The Governor. First of all, she actively sought-out the prison for refuge. Granted, she was injured, but she didn't have much good reason beyond that to go to the prison. And once there she more-or-less fit in and worked with them (to a degree) to go back to Woodbury to save Glenn and Maggie and returned with them to, again, get medical treatment, took a good night's rest, and ultimately stayed there for good. So she likely saw something in Rick and the others at the prison she could trust more than what she saw in the Woodbury-ians.

 

[Morpheus 02]

He also says he was part of the Human Genome Project which was finished at a point likely before he would have been around to be part of it.

1/2 of our crew were children when the Genome project was finished.

The other 1/2 , IF they were even aware of it, only read a headline, and not had a big understanding of what it was really about.

The main people who could've called Eugene on it were Jenner, Hershel & Milton -- all dead before Eugene showed up. Bob was a medic -- but that would be basic health - not the "zombie virus".

Also, how SHORT a time span are we talking here? a couple of days -- days which were FILLED with fear of the Termites. Bigger priority. Little sleep or food in that time.

And speaking of that , the trust isn't so much in Eugene as it is in Abraham.

His first detour, for total strangers, help get Glenn on the road to temrinus. And even when his group split, they CAME BACK to Glenn (and thanks to EUGENE, which no doubt was noted), and were then able to SAVE Glenn. So both he, Maggie & Tara are VERY grateful for that, and proves Abraham's integrity.

And with the Termite escape, he was the last one out (protecting everyone else).

And even when we was ready to bolt, he willingly stayed to help finish off the Termites.

So with all that, i think everyone trusts Abraham...they might not agree with his priorities, but they don't question his integrity. (And the long journey, with lives lost, also adds to ABRAHAM's credibility).

But we'll see (perhaps) in a few hours what happens now. i DO hope Eugene will have a MacGyver moment before he dies sacrificially.

 

[sojourner]

Considering the actor that plays Eugene still had the mullet on Talking Dead last week, I don't think he's dying for at least a few episodes to come.

 

[Trekker4747]

Considering the actor that plays Eugene still had the mullet on Talking Dead last week, I don't think he's dying for at least a few episodes to come.

Plus "reading between the lines" on the way they were talking, he's filmed other episodes before they caught themselves and started talking speculatively.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The main people who could've called Eugene on it were Jenner, Hershel & Milton -- all dead before Eugene showed up. Bob was a medic -- but that would be basic health - not the "zombie virus".

Jenner only had the perspective of being someone on a team trying to understand the plague. Eugene's fallback argument was from the cover-all "classified" / bio-weapon position, which--if it was as "classified" as suggested--would not necessarily be anything the CDC was aware of. Remember, this is set in the U.S., where in the real world, recent history exposed just how fractured the government is with one body refusing to cooperate / share information with the other (ex. criticism of intelligence agencies in the wake of 9/11 and in the procedure of handling Ebola patients).

Milton's background was not known, so he seemed like someone allowed to tinker, but above all else, his bowl experiment was pure beads & rattles territory that was a complete failure. The point being that he was not someone who had enough (or any) medical study of the ZA to be able to call out Eugene. Makes you wonder why the Governor placed him in a situation where he hoped there would be a "cure" of Penny.

What would be his frame of reference?

Herschel was a veterinarian and had some applicable human medical knowledge, but even he was no expert on walkers. It is clear he understood the effect of bites and other observed traits of the plague, but he had more of a response-based understanding, rather than anything based on research.

This can explain why Rick still questioned the veracity of Jenner's secret in the season 2 finale. While people were reanimating sans bites, there was still not enough hard information Rick's group can use to completely dismiss Eugene. They are, after all, just survivors acting on hope, not a research team.

But we'll see (perhaps) in a few hours what happens now. i DO hope Eugene will have a MacGyver moment before he dies sacrificially.

I think a sacrifice will mean more if it building off of his newfound bravery (stabbing walkers / firehose, etc.) instead of some attempt to justify (for the characters) that he was not a 100% fraud. In other words, he would prove that he had value aside from his story.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

double post

 

[kitik]

Also, how SHORT a time span are we talking here? a couple of days -- days which were FILLED with fear of the Termites.

Yeah, I've been thinking about the timeframe too. Rick and company have spent about 48 hours with Eugene, most of which they were in pure survival mode.

So Eugene's lies lasted a full 3-4 days max (maybe 5) after he met Rick.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Yes, the guy had a mullet but that doesn't mean he's not a scientist.

On the contrary, having big unruly hair is actually the most scientist-like thing about Eugene. Have you ever seen a portrait of Isaac Newton without the wig? While not a mullet, the guy was totally merchant in the front, ball in the back.

Look at that bad boy. His Whitesnake cover band is opening for RATT at the Palladium next month.

Also, how SHORT a time span are we talking here? a couple of days -- days which were FILLED with fear of the Termites. Bigger priority. Little sleep or food in that time.

It's a good point about how compressed the timeline is for the characters versus the audience (which I think is really a mistake for them to do again, because it makes things develop at unrealistic speeds). It's easy to lose sight of that.

That being said, I would think the very short amount of time they've been together, even under trying circumstances that would build camaraderie, would work against them trusting Eugene's story so fast rather than in favor.

 

[Trekker4747]

Glenn traveled with Crew Abraham for a few days before getting to Terminus (remember Season 4.5 was a wacky series of overlapping time lines jumping back and forth like an early 1910s movie) so I would think he'd heard (or not heard) from Dr. Mullet to be suspect.

 

[Velocity]

Well, the science education in this country is pretty pathetic.

 

[JD]

And speaking of that , the trust isn't so much in Eugene as it is in Abraham.

His first detour, for total strangers, help get Glenn on the road to temrinus. And even when his group split, they CAME BACK to Glenn (and thanks to EUGENE, which no doubt was noted), and were then able to SAVE Glenn. So both he, Maggie & Tara are VERY grateful for that, and proves Abraham's integrity.

And with the Termite escape, he was the last one out (protecting everyone else).

And even when we was ready to bolt, he willingly stayed to help finish off the Termites.

So with all that, i think everyone trusts Abraham...they might not agree with his priorities, but they don't question his integrity. (And the long journey, with lives lost, also adds to ABRAHAM's credibility).

But we'll see (perhaps) in a few hours what happens now. i DO hope Eugene will have a MacGyver moment before he dies sacrificially.

Yeah, I think the main reason everybody was so willing to believe Eugene was because Abraham was so insistent. If it weren't for him believing him so completely, I think people probably would have been a lot quicker to question Eugene.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, I think the main reason everybody was so willing to believe Eugene was because Abraham was so insistent. If it weren't for him believing him so completely, I think people probably would have been a lot quicker to question Eugene.

They have a hard time questioning many things. From Rick's group, you had Andrea buying the Governor, and still tried to salvage an obvious psychopath even after discovering the room of aquariums / Penny / attacks on her friends. Then, all of the survivors just marched right into Terminus with no realistic back up plan (since they were not expecting Carol's intervention).

Not questioning Eugene did not cost them anything...so far.

Heh, I might change that opinion in an hour, so.....

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Yeah, I think the main reason everybody was so willing to believe Eugene was because Abraham was so insistent. If it weren't for him believing him so completely, I think people probably would have been a lot quicker to question Eugene.

And maybe just really WANTING to believe, to believe that maybe there's some way to go back to normal again.

 

[Velocity]

Carol centric tonight...