And most importantly, will Kate finally get to meet The Thirteenth Doctor?!
Spoilers The Vanquishers grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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And most importantly, will Kate finally get to meet The Thirteenth Doctor?!
I am dreading this one. And no, I don’t think everything’s getting wrapped up here.
The Dr Who Flux FB page MAY have given away a big spoiler in their post today while posting a video from last season.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3114156545528427
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3114156545528427
Is it really that big of a spoiler if I correctly guessed what the video was about before I clicked on it?
IIRC, leaked spoilers from set confirmed that character would be back for the 2022 specials, so it's not completely out of the blue that he should be back here.
Oh well, once more without feeling, I fear...
Is the vid about the Master?
Another thing that may not have been mentioned here: The color of the Doctor Who logo on social media has gradually shifted from orange to blue in recent weeks. Orange, as in this whoniverse, vs blue, as in the new one...
Some more pics:
https://www.tvzoneuk.com/post/dwflux-ep6-tues30nov
Ditto.
Is the vid about the Master?
Another thing that may not have been mentioned here: The color of the Doctor Who logo on social media has gradually shifted from orange to blue in recent weeks. Orange, as in this whoniverse, vs blue, as in the new one...
Some more pics:
https://www.tvzoneuk.com/post/dwflux-ep6-tues30nov
It's past that now, shifted to pink in the most recent. And with each color shift, the logo is increasingly covered in cobwebs and slowly disintegrating before our eyes... (start here, keep hitting the left arrow). How much double meaning you want to read into that, I'll leave up to you.
Easiest test to check just HOW bad a writer Chibnall is? Not even able to give a certaiin character a decent final line.
How hard can that possible be? Anyone can do so in this very forum!
How hard can that possible be? Anyone can do so in this very forum!
Well, a lot to unpack here. Everything came together in the end...but does it really work? I'm not so sure. Ultimately, I think there were too many characters (who were all great to varying degrees with a couple of exceptions) and too many story plots to keep up with. I loved the idea of The Flux and a series-long arc but the execution doesn't quite work.
Swarm and Azure's grand plan was to make The Doctor suffer the same pain as they did? Fair enough. But it felt a bit clumsy with them just standing around and speechifying. The personification of Time coming to "save" the day was a bit weird even if it was sort of set up with Swarm's previous grandstanding. Time's warning about The Master was a bit on the nose but that's modern Doctor Who for you (Davies and Moffat were certainly guilty of it so why not Chibnall?).
Everything with The Grand Serpent seemed completely extraneous and unnecessary. Kind of felt like he returned these last two episodes just to give Kate her own little adversary...but then did nothing with it (aside from the great first face-off). Also, it was odd how he didn't recognize Vinder at the end so what was the point of including that connection? To be clear, I liked the backstory we got with Vinder but to bring back The Grand Serpent to be Kate's adversary, too, seemed pointless. Unless he returns in the specials...but eh.
Another thing that didn't quite work because so much was going on was the relationship with Dan and Diane. They finally reunite...and she's completely miffed because he was late? She saw firsthand how crazy space and time has been in the last however long and yet she couldn't accept his explanation that he was unfortunately diverted? What was the point of all of that then? But at least Dan is sticking around for now. Hopefully with a less crowded cast, he'll get more time to stand out.
What did work for me was how The Doctor was split between three different places at once which allowed Jodie Whittaker to truly shine and with just about every single character of the series. I absolutely loved her banter with herself to the point of emulating the well-established trope of The Doctor not getting along with herself in previous multi-Doctor stories. The split also allowed Kate to finally meet The Thirteenth Doctor but because there was so many moving parts flying all over the place, they didn't get much to do. Hopefully their final scene where they both hope to meet again comes true in the specials (as I think rumors have suggested).
I also loved that The Doctor finally came clean to Yaz and admitted that she was shutting Yaz out and promises to be more open. Of course, she also didn't mention the dire warning from Time so...
That all said and done, I'm not surprised The Doctor chose to stash away the fob watch of memories for another day. Just as I predicted and I'm fine with that. Chibnall created the sandbox and it's up to Davies and future showrunners to decide if they want to play in it. Hopefully sooner than later because I want more of The Fugitive Doctor.
I was sad to see Jericho die but I wasn't too surprised. Thank you for the great character, Kevin McNally!
New Year's Special: Oh, boy. The Daleks. Again. Hooray.
Swarm and Azure's grand plan was to make The Doctor suffer the same pain as they did? Fair enough. But it felt a bit clumsy with them just standing around and speechifying. The personification of Time coming to "save" the day was a bit weird even if it was sort of set up with Swarm's previous grandstanding. Time's warning about The Master was a bit on the nose but that's modern Doctor Who for you (Davies and Moffat were certainly guilty of it so why not Chibnall?).
Everything with The Grand Serpent seemed completely extraneous and unnecessary. Kind of felt like he returned these last two episodes just to give Kate her own little adversary...but then did nothing with it (aside from the great first face-off). Also, it was odd how he didn't recognize Vinder at the end so what was the point of including that connection? To be clear, I liked the backstory we got with Vinder but to bring back The Grand Serpent to be Kate's adversary, too, seemed pointless. Unless he returns in the specials...but eh.
Another thing that didn't quite work because so much was going on was the relationship with Dan and Diane. They finally reunite...and she's completely miffed because he was late? She saw firsthand how crazy space and time has been in the last however long and yet she couldn't accept his explanation that he was unfortunately diverted? What was the point of all of that then? But at least Dan is sticking around for now. Hopefully with a less crowded cast, he'll get more time to stand out.
What did work for me was how The Doctor was split between three different places at once which allowed Jodie Whittaker to truly shine and with just about every single character of the series. I absolutely loved her banter with herself to the point of emulating the well-established trope of The Doctor not getting along with herself in previous multi-Doctor stories. The split also allowed Kate to finally meet The Thirteenth Doctor but because there was so many moving parts flying all over the place, they didn't get much to do. Hopefully their final scene where they both hope to meet again comes true in the specials (as I think rumors have suggested).
I also loved that The Doctor finally came clean to Yaz and admitted that she was shutting Yaz out and promises to be more open. Of course, she also didn't mention the dire warning from Time so...
That all said and done, I'm not surprised The Doctor chose to stash away the fob watch of memories for another day. Just as I predicted and I'm fine with that. Chibnall created the sandbox and it's up to Davies and future showrunners to decide if they want to play in it. Hopefully sooner than later because I want more of The Fugitive Doctor.
I was sad to see Jericho die but I wasn't too surprised. Thank you for the great character, Kevin McNally!
New Year's Special: Oh, boy. The Daleks. Again. Hooray.
Hard disagree. I loved his "scourge of scoundrels" line.
Here's my first, few thoughts, and I'll try to be as succinct as possible: Lacklustre disposal of villains (literally vanquished into thin air), disappointing usage of Kate Stewart (the Serpent storyline literally served almost no purpose in the end, making the UNIT origin story even more annoying as it occupied a great idea for an impish concept), main companions again not doing much, pointless inclusion of Daleks and Cybermen (who seem to have really become the butt of the joke forever in NuWho now), and the ending just really reminded me of the Simpsons' The Principal and the Pauper. Don't know why.
Few good things: The three Doctors split from one is a great idea, and reminiscent if some remember of what Chibnall was rumored to have in store for his own Capaldi series, had Peter decided to stay for one more series. The Sontarans were mostly effective, even if the plot was rushed to the ending.
Overall, not thrilled. At least Whittaker was fun, but it seemed to me like she almost couldn't keep up with the script. I'll rewatch it afterwards to see if this was my impression only.
Last thought: Oh, man. Why do we have to keep Dan? Couldn't the old guy get a memorable name and stay in the TARDIS, instead?
Few good things: The three Doctors split from one is a great idea, and reminiscent if some remember of what Chibnall was rumored to have in store for his own Capaldi series, had Peter decided to stay for one more series. The Sontarans were mostly effective, even if the plot was rushed to the ending.
Overall, not thrilled. At least Whittaker was fun, but it seemed to me like she almost couldn't keep up with the script. I'll rewatch it afterwards to see if this was my impression only.
Last thought: Oh, man. Why do we have to keep Dan? Couldn't the old guy get a memorable name and stay in the TARDIS, instead?
There is something very "odd" (for want of a better word) about the Chibnall-era of Who. It seems to be defined by "tell, don't show". For example, in tonight's episode we have Kate saying she is leading the human resistance. But, what exactly does that mean? We don't see her do anything before the Doctor arrives. We don't see her leading other people as part of a campaign. She just says it. And because of this, I am not sure why she was in the episode. As much as I love the character, I am not sure what exactly she contributed here. Bit like Captain Jack in the last Dalek special.
The Sontarans say they killed on the dog-aliens protecting Earth, almost as a throwaway line, with a brief description of what they did. But not even a hint of a battle shown.
It reminds me of the finale of last series where the Doctor was trapped in the Matrix for most of it and the Master explained everything about the Timeless Child.
At times it comes across as a bad Big Finish story, except some of them feel more visual than the current tv episodes.
The Sontarans say they killed on the dog-aliens protecting Earth, almost as a throwaway line, with a brief description of what they did. But not even a hint of a battle shown.
It reminds me of the finale of last series where the Doctor was trapped in the Matrix for most of it and the Master explained everything about the Timeless Child.
At times it comes across as a bad Big Finish story, except some of them feel more visual than the current tv episodes.
You mean Eustacius Jericho? That's a pretty damn memorable name.
Yeah, I would've liked to have seen more of him but I'm okay with what we got.
That annoyed me, too. Hopefully she'll get more to do in her next appearance (rumored to be in one of the specials).
That, too, greatly bothered me. It's as if they ran out of money for special effects after doing the Flux and the destruction of the Daleks and Cybermen. I would've preferred dropping the Daleks and Cybermen altogether in order to give more weight to the Sontaran attack against the Lupari.
I feel, though, that while BF has been making fairly standard, unexciting plot-driven stories as of late, more driven by era-specific nostalgia than actual good storymaking, I will excuse them cause they're tie-in media, and they can't be allowed to innovate (the most meaningful time they ever did anyway was with the Sixth and Eighth, and outside that with Torchwood due to RTD's direct hand behind the scenes). Hell, even they can still pull the occassional masterstroke - just this month, the Ninth Doctor Adventures includes Monsters of Metropolis, and its a legitimate gem, and serious contender for the best audio of the Ninth and indeed the year (certainly one of the best five, IMO).
I wasn't even trying to be "funny", I literally didn't remember the name. Still enjoyed the character more than Dan, though. The more I think about it, the more ticked off I am that he was offed.
Way too little, and as an expsense over other, uninteresting storylines.
The other thing that comes to me from reading your and Csalem's posts is how rushed the entire conclusion seemed. For weeks the most ardent Chib fans have said that the reason the early episodes had such haphazard plotting and too many plotlines going at the same time was because he knew exactly what he was doing (lol) and that it would all make sense at the end.
To me, it seemed like he either had an ending but had to cut away material off it due to budget, or just really didn't have enough time to properly polish it, especially if the rumors of a cutdown season from 10 episodes is true.
BTW, not a single Tecteun reference. Not saying she should have been a focal point, but... I dunno, not even a glimpse of a subconscious sense of loss for the Doctor? That woman's her oldest acquaintance by Chibnall's accounts!
Not really sure what I thought of that. Will have to rewatch it - and the whole thing - to get a better handle on it all.
The fact Swarm and Azure turned out to be generic baddies rather than anyone we know (so to speak) was a good thing (some of the random ideas I came up with during the episode would have been horrific so I'm stoked to have been totally wrong). At the same time it was a bit dull - people the Doctor wronged back in the day that the Doctor can't even remember isn't particularly interesting, and they still came across as evil for evil's sake. So...yeah. Fail there, for mine.
Bel and Vinder's kid isn't anyone we know, either. Definitely a good thing.
The "Grand Serpent" was essentially useless - just another evil for evil's sake baddie, basically only there to give Vinder and Kate someone to play off. Another fail, for mine.
It would be nice if this meant the end of the Daleks and Cybermen in particular - with the Sontarans as a bonus - but I don't suppose I'll be that fortunate.
A few random thoughts: Why wipe out the Lupari? What the hell is Di's problem? What a pathetic way to get her out of the picture so Dan can hang out on the TARDIS. If Jericho had to die, I liked that he met it with far more dignity than the Sontaran. And at least no one turned out to be the damned Master...I hope. The stuff at the end with the reference to the "master" doesn't inspire confidence.
Liked the bit with Kate saying she liked this regeneration. Liked the bit with the Doctor admitting she ought not to close herself off to Yaz. Really liked that she got the watch, but didn't open it - while also giving herself the option to open it at some point.
There were a hell of a lot of characters in this. Not sure all of them worked and not sure all of them got enough to do, but kudos to the cast. Jodie Whittaker has been wasted on the vast majority material she's had to work with during her tenure but she was just exceptional in this whole six-parter and in this ep in particular.
That's a lot of words for something I'm not sure about. Now to read what everyone else reckons, and to find time to rewatch this in its entirety.
The fact Swarm and Azure turned out to be generic baddies rather than anyone we know (so to speak) was a good thing (some of the random ideas I came up with during the episode would have been horrific so I'm stoked to have been totally wrong
). At the same time it was a bit dull - people the Doctor wronged back in the day that the Doctor can't even remember isn't particularly interesting, and they still came across as evil for evil's sake. So...yeah. Fail there, for mine.Bel and Vinder's kid isn't anyone we know, either. Definitely a good thing.
The "Grand Serpent" was essentially useless - just another evil for evil's sake baddie, basically only there to give Vinder and Kate someone to play off. Another fail, for mine.
It would be nice if this meant the end of the Daleks and Cybermen in particular - with the Sontarans as a bonus - but I don't suppose I'll be that fortunate.
A few random thoughts: Why wipe out the Lupari? What the hell is Di's problem? What a pathetic way to get her out of the picture so Dan can hang out on the TARDIS. If Jericho had to die, I liked that he met it with far more dignity than the Sontaran. And at least no one turned out to be the damned Master...I hope. The stuff at the end with the reference to the "master" doesn't inspire confidence.
Liked the bit with Kate saying she liked this regeneration. Liked the bit with the Doctor admitting she ought not to close herself off to Yaz. Really liked that she got the watch, but didn't open it - while also giving herself the option to open it at some point.
There were a hell of a lot of characters in this. Not sure all of them worked and not sure all of them got enough to do, but kudos to the cast. Jodie Whittaker has been wasted on the vast majority material she's had to work with during her tenure but she was just exceptional in this whole six-parter and in this ep in particular.
That's a lot of words for something I'm not sure about.
Now to read what everyone else reckons, and to find time to rewatch this in its entirety.
All the Doctor knows of Tecteun is that she found her, raised her and then - when she found out about her ability to regenerate, experimented on her until she found the secret. And is now trying to kill the universe just to stop her finding out Division's grubby little secrets.
I wouldn't waste a second thought on her either.
Bad dialogue - Karvanista telling the Doctor he has an implant in his brain that - if he blabs - will inject poison... into his brain. Never. I'd have thought they'd go with a very long needle into his "lipstick" (dog memes ahoy).
Good dialogue - the Doctor fancies herself. And the Yaz conversation was closer to "and then they done sex" than anything since Rose. Bloody Scousers....
I wouldn't waste a second thought on her either.
Bad dialogue - Karvanista telling the Doctor he has an implant in his brain that - if he blabs - will inject poison... into his brain. Never. I'd have thought they'd go with a very long needle into his "lipstick" (dog memes ahoy).
Good dialogue - the Doctor fancies herself. And the Yaz conversation was closer to "and then they done sex" than anything since Rose. Bloody Scousers....
From Tecteun's perspective, yes, but The Doctor barely knows her because of her stolen memories.
So on the one hand Chibnall didn't stick the landing. On the plus side he didn't slam the plane into the ground at speed destroying the the plane and the airport. I did actually enjoy that, but so many dangling threads. In the end there were just too many characters and too many divergent plots. Yes they did kinda come together in the end (well some of them did) but mostly in an unsatisfying way.
Jericho and Claire: Was great to see them team up again. What a shame Jericho died, and so pointlessly too. There was a great spin-off series there.
Swarm and Azure: We're your ultimate foes Doc-tor, we're going to make you suffer, we're going to talk and talk and talk and...oh crap we're dead, killed by, er, Time itself? Such a shame as they've been really memorable and threatening villains.
The Sontarans: Just fab. From the comedic to the threatening Chibnall seems to really 'get' them. The Sontaran in a sweetshop was hilarious. At the other end of the spectrum the Sontaran plan to betray the Daleks and Cybermen was great and very on brand.
Bel and Vinder: I mean they were sweet, and I'm glad that the rumour about their child being the Timeless Child seems at the moment to be so much hot air, but did we really need them?
The Grand Serpent: What was the point?! All that UNIT stuff and he was just a Sontaran henchman, not the Master, not even working for the Master, and in the end defeated with ease. I did like his "For me it was Tuesday" moment with Vinder which just cemented his arrogance. Someone online did wonder if, like Tim Shaw, he'll come back to haunt the Doctor.
Kate: Love her to bits but again very peripheral.
Williamson: Thanks a lot mate now back you go.
Diane: It's great that a disabled character saves the day, but because we're barely seen her since she was kidnapped her reveal as a genius who understands everything about the Passenger seemed a little too trite (but not like RTD and Moff didn't give us similar). Shame we couldn't have had a minute or two every episode charting her learning curve because then her eventual reveal as saviour of the universe would have been amazing.
The Passenger: I actually liked this as a resolution, it works as well as the vacuum cleaner sucking up Daleks and Cybermen or twidling some buttons to destroy all the Daleks, and it was seeded throughout the season, but I thought the Passenger could only hold hundreds of thousands of people, that doesn't sound very infinite?
Karvanista: Got his revenge against the Sontarans and he was fun, hope we see him again. I like the fact that he was the Doctor's companion but
Dan: Not given enough to do but fun.
Yaz: Actually got some agency in defeating the Sontarans. Nice scene with the Doctor, and clearly there is something there between the characters. And talking of the Doctor...
The Doctor: Whittaker knocks it out of the park again. My favourite bit was possibly when she rescued herself. "Please stop torturing me." Lovely banter with herself, again someone other than me pointed out the similarities with the Three Doctors. Two bickering Doctors while a third sits in a bubble outside of time.
Apologies if I've forgotten anyone but there were a lot of characters!
So, all in all Flux threw everything, including the kitchen sink, at the wall. Some of it stuck, some of it bounced off, but too much of it slid slowly down the wall to the floor. The Flux was impossible to defeat, until it was, the Doctor went to extreme lengths to learn the truth about herself but when she had the means at the end she decided not to look (which is fine but what prompted that change of heart?).
All that and we didn't get a return for Jo Martin (And there's so a Jo Martin/Karvanista show out there isn't there!)
It was more fun than the previous two seasons, and Chibnall has given us a great Sontaran episode and a great Weeping Angels episode. I wonder if we'll ever know if Flux was originally 8 episode and maybe Chibnall was forced to truncate it? At times it has felt very rushed.
I gave it a 7
Jericho and Claire: Was great to see them team up again. What a shame Jericho died, and so pointlessly too. There was a great spin-off series there.
Swarm and Azure: We're your ultimate foes Doc-tor, we're going to make you suffer, we're going to talk and talk and talk and...oh crap we're dead, killed by, er, Time itself? Such a shame as they've been really memorable and threatening villains.
The Sontarans: Just fab. From the comedic to the threatening Chibnall seems to really 'get' them. The Sontaran in a sweetshop was hilarious. At the other end of the spectrum the Sontaran plan to betray the Daleks and Cybermen was great and very on brand.
Bel and Vinder: I mean they were sweet, and I'm glad that the rumour about their child being the Timeless Child seems at the moment to be so much hot air, but did we really need them?
The Grand Serpent: What was the point?! All that UNIT stuff and he was just a Sontaran henchman, not the Master, not even working for the Master, and in the end defeated with ease. I did like his "For me it was Tuesday" moment with Vinder which just cemented his arrogance. Someone online did wonder if, like Tim Shaw, he'll come back to haunt the Doctor.
Kate: Love her to bits but again very peripheral.
Williamson: Thanks a lot mate now back you go.
Diane: It's great that a disabled character saves the day, but because we're barely seen her since she was kidnapped her reveal as a genius who understands everything about the Passenger seemed a little too trite (but not like RTD and Moff didn't give us similar). Shame we couldn't have had a minute or two every episode charting her learning curve because then her eventual reveal as saviour of the universe would have been amazing.
The Passenger: I actually liked this as a resolution, it works as well as the vacuum cleaner sucking up Daleks and Cybermen or twidling some buttons to destroy all the Daleks, and it was seeded throughout the season, but I thought the Passenger could only hold hundreds of thousands of people, that doesn't sound very infinite?
Karvanista: Got his revenge against the Sontarans and he was fun, hope we see him again. I like the fact that he was the Doctor's companion but
Dan: Not given enough to do but fun.
Yaz: Actually got some agency in defeating the Sontarans. Nice scene with the Doctor, and clearly there is something there between the characters. And talking of the Doctor...
The Doctor: Whittaker knocks it out of the park again. My favourite bit was possibly when she rescued herself. "Please stop torturing me." Lovely banter with herself, again someone other than me pointed out the similarities with the Three Doctors. Two bickering Doctors while a third sits in a bubble outside of time.
Apologies if I've forgotten anyone but there were a lot of characters!
So, all in all Flux threw everything, including the kitchen sink, at the wall. Some of it stuck, some of it bounced off, but too much of it slid slowly down the wall to the floor. The Flux was impossible to defeat, until it was, the Doctor went to extreme lengths to learn the truth about herself but when she had the means at the end she decided not to look (which is fine but what prompted that change of heart?).
All that and we didn't get a return for Jo Martin (And there's so a Jo Martin/Karvanista show out there isn't there!)
It was more fun than the previous two seasons, and Chibnall has given us a great Sontaran episode and a great Weeping Angels episode. I wonder if we'll ever know if Flux was originally 8 episode and maybe Chibnall was forced to truncate it? At times it has felt very rushed.
I gave it a 7
Off the cuff:
Loved that Jericho's last words were from Peter Pan.
Still don't get how the doctor got trisected, but I know a few medics who wish they could pull that trick.
I'll be sorry to see Jodie go - especially since her era has been marked by action- free scripts. Not sure if that's Chibnell always or just an unconscious treatment of a female lead. If the latter her leaving now is an even bigger shame.
Glad they didn't open the watch. Always put your toys away after you, I say.
I am definitely up for a Vinder, Bel and Karvanista spin-off.
And I think I have severe narrative indigestion. In fact, the entire season has been indigestible... and the end didn't warrant it.
Loved that Jericho's last words were from Peter Pan.
Still don't get how the doctor got trisected, but I know a few medics who wish they could pull that trick.
I'll be sorry to see Jodie go - especially since her era has been marked by action- free scripts. Not sure if that's Chibnell always or just an unconscious treatment of a female lead. If the latter her leaving now is an even bigger shame.
Glad they didn't open the watch. Always put your toys away after you, I say.
I am definitely up for a Vinder, Bel and Karvanista spin-off.
And I think I have severe narrative indigestion. In fact, the entire season has been indigestible... and the end didn't warrant it.
