The UFP should have dedicated ground forces

[Deimos Anomaly]

Why does it not have proper troops?

It needs a ground force for all those on-planet battles with the dominion etc. You can't go sending a bunch of starship captains and senior officers to fight battles (it's laughable really.)

If I were in the UFP and was in charge of getting ground battles won I'd dig out an old copy of Full Metal Jacket, a copy of Jarhead as well, feed them into one of those all-but-sentient UFP computers, and tell it to create a holodeck training regime based on that which it found, and also a holodeck drill instructor based on Hartman, Fitch etc. but updated to 23rd / 24th century weps, equipment and scenarios.

I'd take in recruits and turf em into that holodeck for however long a real life USMC boot camp usually lasts. Of course with holodeck tech the training and combat simulation would be realistic in a way never achievable today. And I mean they stay in for that time, eating and sleeping in barracks that are all part of the holodeck scenario. The only way out of the HD during that basic training period is if they quit, as in the real-life Marine training today, or if some emergency threatens the facility in which the HD is situated, requiring evacuation.

They would come out born again hard, and equipped with an arsenal of bad ass weapons (I'd reintroduce such concepts as fully-automatic weapons which seem to have been forgotten about somewhere, ever notice all phasers are semi only), they would proceed to scour planet after planet of Jemmie scum.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

I'm not sure it's been established they do or don't. Enterprise had MACOS so maybe something like that continued after the UFP came into being. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[MarianLH]

The problem is, it stretches suspension of disbelief to say they exist when we haven't seen them. If they exist, why weren't there any on that planet Jake and Dr. Bashir went to where they were fighting the Klingons, or that listening post where Nog lost his leg? 21 seasons of 24th-century television, and not a single Starfleet Marine ever seen or mentioned in dialogue.

Or maybe the ground forces do exist and happen to use the same three uniform colors as Starfleet. And the same naval ranks. And have engineers. Okay, maybe not.

Ironically, there is evidence that they existed back in the 23rd century, in the form of "Colonel" West and the blue-shirted guys in TFF.

Well, the Dominion War was supposed to be the first real big interstellar war for the Federation since the original Romulan War back in the 2100s. In TWOK, Dr. Marcus says "Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years". And from the way they talked about the Dominion War on DS9 it stayed that way, skirmishes with the Cardassians and Tzenkethi notwithstanding.

So maybe somewhere in the early 24th century ground forces were seen as anachronistic, no longer necessary, and were disbanded? Sure, they were needed for the Dominion war, as the OP said. But that doesn't mean the UFP had the foresight to anticipate that need.


Marian

 

[FPAlpha]

Who says they don't?

However Star Trek being a ship based show and DS9 the only show with a lengthy war we didn't get a good look at the entire Federation.

Star Trek isn't a military show like JAG, Pensacola or others that play in a "true" military.. its focus was elsewhere.

Realistically speaking even the peaceloving and diplomatic Federation couldn't afford existing without a standing military.
I believe every planet had its own national guard that's supplied by the Federation and Starfleet.. it would be foolish not to have one and invite agression.

Not even renaissance men like Picard would venture out into the unknown with a non-armed ship and all the major powers of the Alpha quadrant knew that the Federation likes to talk first but that their ships also pack a punch and their captains are very well trained and experienced.

So i don't believe that Starfleet doesn't have its version of Sgt. Hartman (just imagine the creative insults he could do with various races ).. they have ground forces, heavy military equipment but Star Trek is a space based show so there it is.

 

[TeutonicNights]

There are such troops and we have seen them. It in "Nor the battle to the strong"
http://www.answers.com/topic/stds9ep504-jpg

 

[Vonstadt]

and in the Seige of the Dominion Array. They just werent engineers.

And there are a few mentions of Convoys ferrying Federation 'Troops' during war on DS9 as i recall

 

[evilalienbraga]

I've always been against the idea of marines or MACOs (or whatever) in Trek. Starfleet officers are not soldiers. They have a military role to play, but it is one role amongst many. Some may specialise in security, but as far as I see it, they are all multi skilled. Making a marine corp would militarise the whole thing. This may not be effective in the real world, but Star Trek is a utopian view of humanity - it's not necesaarily realistic when it comes to military strategy!

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

I disagree, evilalienbrage. A utopian "peacenik" humanity eschewing any true military would be just asking to be invaded and taken over or even exterminated by an agressive militaristic power that did not share their pacifism. And from a certain point of view it could be said that they would deserve it.

 

[Angel4576]

TNG was a utopian view of humanity, but DS9 hardly was. The existence of an organisation like Section31, the situation that created the Maquis, some of the underhanded measures that were used during the Dominion war (effectively tricking the Romulans into the war). All go some way towards showing that humanity of that timeframe are still quite flawed, no matter how TNG may have painted us.

 

[Ro_Laren]

I am sure they did have dedicated ground forces, but they rarely made an appearance on Star Trek. Starfleet is kinda like a Navy and Marine Corps in one....

 

[evilalienbraga]

Deimos Anomaly said:
I disagree, evilalienbrage. A utopian "peacenik" humanity eschewing any true military would be just asking to be invaded and taken over or even exterminated by an agressive militaristic power that did not share their pacifism. And from a certain point of view it could be said that they would deserve it.

Yes, but we're not talking about the real world - we're talking about Star Trek, which has certain ideals and attitudes that may not work out in real life but are compelling on screen. I do find the idea that a 'peacenik' community somehow 'deserves' to be wiped out, absurd, and definitely not in the spirit of Trek. That's not to say Starfleet can't defend itself, it can, but I'm fairly sure Picard and Janeway have said something along the lines of being 'explorers' not soldiers.

 

[evilalienbraga]

Angel4576 said:
TNG was a utopian view of humanity, but DS9 hardly was. The existence of an organisation like Section31, the situation that created the Maquis, some of the underhanded measures that were used during the Dominion war (effectively tricking the Romulans into the war). All go some way towards showing that humanity of that timeframe are still quite flawed, no matter how TNG may have painted us.

True, but there was a lot of gnashing of teeth by Sisko over tricking the Romulans (would any superpower these days care much about the death of one foreign diplomat? hardly). And it's arguable Section 31 is a rogue organisation which doesn't have the backing of the UFP.
That said, DS9 was darker, (probably because Roddenberry had no influence over it) but that doesn't negate the Trek 'worldview' portrayed by TNG. Look at Insurrection - Picard said no to harvesting the Baku planet *even* in order to help with the Dominion War - TNG's utopian attitude took prevalence again. I think the influence of TNG is stronger. But if you want Trek to be less utopian, I think Trek XI may please you... (that's my instinct on how it's going to turn out).

 

[Daedalus12]

Onscreen evidence aside we are told that Starfleet officers are all well trained in hand to hand and small arms combat. With starships in orbit the occupying forces will have the ultimate "air superiority." The only thing lacking in ST is some sort of mechanized division.

 

[Nebusj]

Deimos Anomaly said:
Why does it not have proper troops?

They're a combined service. Why would you need a separate set of uniforms and rank names for people operating out of the same organization and charged with the same responsibility and answering to the same authority? Because the place they fight when they need to is different?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Nebusj said:
They're a combined service. Why would you need a separate set of uniforms and rank names for people operating out of the same organization and charged with the same responsibility and answering to the same authority? Because the place they fight when they need to is different?

Pretty much, yeah.

Starfleet has ground troops, that much is obvious. We've heard about them many times on DS9.

Now exactly how these are organized is not exactly 100% clear. Although it does seem fairly self-evident that there's some sort of separate division of Starfleet that only does ground combat. You couldn't pluck just any starship crew off the ship and put them on the front lines; that would be like taking a security guard at Wal-Mart and sending them to Iraq.

And since we have seen *Colonel* West in ST VI, well, that's enough for me. Starfleet may not call its ground troops by a different name (i.e. they don't have to be called "Starfleet Marines" as such, although that would probably be a good idea) - they'd have ground-based ranks, of course, but you don't have to otherwise call them anything different than just "Starfleet troops". You just have the understanding that Starfleet ship crews have naval ranks, and ground troops have, well, ground ranks.

 

[Alisium]

Nebusj said:

Deimos Anomaly said:
Why does it not have proper troops?

They're a combined service. Why would you need a separate set of uniforms and rank names for people operating out of the same organization and charged with the same responsibility and answering to the same authority? Because the place they fight when they need to is different?

I think he/she is asking why Starfleet or the Federation does not have a specifically trained combat arms branch. Like an infantry would be. It's not good enough to say that they have SF security. Security and warfigthing are two different animals.

But, they could essentially have an MOS that we have yet to see that exist entirely within Starfleet that would handle warfigthing. Just as you said.

I don't know what's on DS9 for said warfigters but, from what I have seen on TNG, the Tasha Yars of Starfleet handle the dynamic large scale ground combat situations. Which is nonesense.

The simple answer why not....hippies are writing military stories and Trek has no credible military advisors involved in the writing process, therefore we get a subtle demonization of the military.

Guns and Military = Evil

 

[Alisium]

Babaganoosh said:

Nebusj said:
They're a combined service. Why would you need a separate set of uniforms and rank names for people operating out of the same organization and charged with the same responsibility and answering to the same authority? Because the place they fight when they need to is different?

Pretty much, yeah.

Starfleet has ground troops, that much is obvious. We've heard about them many times on DS9.

Now exactly how these are organized is not exactly 100% clear. Although it does seem fairly self-evident that there's some sort of separate division of Starfleet that only does ground combat. You couldn't pluck just any starship crew off the ship and put them on the front lines; that would be like taking a security guard at Wal-Mart and sending them to Iraq.

And since we have seen *Colonel* West in ST VI, well, that's enough for me. Starfleet may not call its ground troops by a different name (i.e. they don't have to be called "Starfleet Marines" as such, although that would probably be a good idea) - they'd have ground-based ranks, of course, but you don't have to otherwise call them anything different than just "Starfleet troops". You just have the understanding that Starfleet ship crews have naval ranks, and ground troops have, well, ground ranks.

Exactly!

Like how the Japanese and Russians have/had a naval infantry. They're called 'petty officers' and 'seamen' but their function is Marine in practice.

I forgot about Colonel West.

I would wager that they have to have a Federation Army, outside the influence of Starfleet. Or at least they should. It's not good to put all your eggs in one basket.

 

[Nardpuncher]

My little Treksplanation was that the MACOs were eventually absorbed into Starfleet and that all Starfleet personnel are well trained in combat of all sorts. Kinda like navy SEALs mixed with astronauts!

 

[Angel4576]

evilalienbraga said:
True, but there was a lot of gnashing of teeth by Sisko over tricking the Romulans (would any superpower these days care much about the death of one foreign diplomat? hardly). And it's arguable Section 31 is a rogue organisation which doesn't have the backing of the UFP.
That said, DS9 was darker, (probably because Roddenberry had no influence over it) but that doesn't negate the Trek 'worldview' portrayed by TNG. Look at Insurrection - Picard said no to harvesting the Baku planet *even* in order to help with the Dominion War - TNG's utopian attitude took prevalence again. I think the influence of TNG is stronger. But if you want Trek to be less utopian, I think Trek XI may please you... (that's my instinct on how it's going to turn out).

Sisko made all the right noises to ease his conscience, but how quickly was Garak forgiven?

There's also Admiral Leyton's attempted coup. Section31 as well, just how many rogue elements are there embedded inside Starfleet?

Backing of Section31 by the Federation is subjective, given that their founding purpose was to protect section 31 of the Federation charter. They're obviously supported to some degree by rogue elements within Starfleet, wouldn't surprise me if they had supporters inside the Federation's political setup as well.

Again re TNG, and Insurrection, Picard chose not to harvest the Baku, but Vice-Admiral Dougherty was quite prepared to. No doubt after the event the Federation would have shaken their heads and backed Picard, but I doubt they'd have been overly concerned had Dougherty succeeded.

Even in TNG there were occasionally undertones that all was not as rosy as was perceived in the Federation. Let's not forget that it was in TNG that the Federation effectively sold out the colony worlds that led to the formation of The Maquis.

Utopian's been done to death in Star Trek IMO, time to go back down the darker route, like DS9, so if that's the way XI ultimately goes, I for one won't be complaining too much!

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

There is a saying, "those who beat their swords into ploughs will plough for those who didn't."

The UFP very nearly learned that the hard way with the Dominion. And if not for enlisting the Romulans to fight for them, and that deux ex machina with the wormhole's inhabitants, they would have.