The "Too Perfect Crew" Stigmna

[RoJoHen]

What exactly made the Enterprise D the "flagship"?

Well, there's the fact that the characters themselves flat out refer to it as such in several different episodes.

 

[Anwar]

I've always agreed with this particular criticism of TNG. Way too smug in attitude. One of the things that made TOS attractive was that is was asprirational in outlook. Okay, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and The Federation might not have been perfect, but they were trying to be better, and trying to do the right thing. This is a good message to see on a weekly basis - maybe things aren't perfect, but that's no reason to not keep trying to make it better. TNG (and VOY) come along and we get told that Earth and the Federation are paradise accomplished and nobody has to want/need anything and we're gonna go out and civilize the rest of the galaxy. Freakin' liberal-progressive wet-dream (we got ours and we're gonna make you all behave the same way as us!), but not so great drama in a weekly tv series. Fortunately, DSN came along and sterred the boat back in TOS' direction.

Actually, plenty of TNG was about them realizing their superior attitudes were wrong and they still had a long way to go.

As for the superior smugness...what, people shouldn't be proud of their accomplishments?

Hell, most of the time in TOS Spock was always going on about how inferior humans were and how great Vulcans were.

 

[T'Girl]

What exactly made the Enterprise D the "flagship"

Well, there's the fact that the characters themselves flat out refer to it as such in several different episodes.

So, the mere fact that they referred to it as the flagship is what made it the flagship in the first place?

Given that Starfleet always come out ahead in conflict with the Borg (at a price yes)

Which of course, plausibly shouldn't have happened

Of course it should have. Face it, the only thing the Borg have going for them is weight of numbers. The Borg possess no imagination, no creativity, no fortitude, the Borg are a mass of slow moving captive slaves with a single individual calling the shots.

The Borg's previous successes were based on going after groups who couldn't defend themselves, weak low hanging fruit, Starfleet was able to defend themselves, and possessed imagination, and creativity, and fortitude.

The Borg never had a chance, which the Borg would have know, if the Borg were capable of figuring anything out.

.

 

[Mysterion]

For further commentary on the thread subject see "Boldly Going Nowhere?" by Melinda Snodgrass in the December 1991 issue of Omni magazine. She is spot-on in her analysis of the flaws of TNG.

 

[jim-jean-ben]

too perfect....like a CO who had insecurities about his youth. An XO who had career insecurities. A second officer who had to fight for his right to exist in UFP society. Chief Engineer who was blind, and had dating problems. A CMO who by her near admission had active distate for non-Earth/human values and allowed it to interfere with her work. Security chief who revered his home culture, but admitted to himself and his wife that he felt ashamed at not having basic Klingon instincts. And a Counsellor who studies people, but dumps a big fucking shit when her mother comes aboard; hardly a stranger and somebody you've known literally all your life....

No, the TNG crew weren't perfect. They had their flaws, but the E-D as the flagship was supposed to have the best of the best in Starfleet. anybody who says they are perfect never really watched the show. If Sisko is "more real/normal" for poisoning the planet, then Picard is for allowing revenge to influence his judgment.

As for conflict, what's wrong with a crew being friends, even lovers as some where? Surely in a life and death/military scenario, bonds are more advantageous than enemies. If a Romulan decloaks and unloads, and your enemy can provide you more rations when you're drifting towards a Starbase in an escape pod, what do you think you should do? Hate on Dr. Crusher, or know if she's your friend she'll be more amenable? It's like in WWII or any other conflict, people in the same units generally become comrades.

 

[jim-jean-ben]

^Picard ... he was very adamant that they not use force to make others conform

Comformity can be accomplish through means other than application of force.

I'll give you "this" if you just change your legal code a tiny little bit.

Okay, now I'll give you "that" if you make a small alteration in your educational system.

Lovely, how about wonderful "trade deal," in exchange for a rewording of your patent laws.

in Q who showing them they weren't as nearly ready to encounter 'anything that is out there' as they thought they were

Given that Starfleet always come out ahead in conflict with the Borg (at a price yes) and that Voyager was able in End Game to destroy the Borg, Q was completely wrong.

We are (and always will be) ready for what's out there.

.

Yes, called writing and protagonists always win.

And it's called the flagship since the writers said so, and like, you know the setting of the show.

 

[jim-jean-ben]

What exactly made the Enterprise D the "flagship"?

For the vast majority of the time, there was no flag officer aboard the Enterprise D, so it was by no means a flagship in the naval sense.

It wasn't the only Galaxy-class ship, either. So it wasn't the most advanced or powerful ship in the fleet. There's no indication that the Enterprise's role or function was really different from, or more important than, any of the other exploratory operations in the fleet.

Kor

Cos the writers don't know naval procedures.....

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

What exactly made the Enterprise D the "flagship"?

For the vast majority of the time, there was no flag officer aboard the Enterprise D, so it was by no means a flagship in the naval sense.

It wasn't the only Galaxy-class ship, either. So it wasn't the most advanced or powerful ship in the fleet. There's no indication that the Enterprise's role or function was really different from, or more important than, any of the other exploratory operations in the fleet.

Kor

Cos the writers don't know naval procedures.....

Please learn to use the Multi-Quote option. Serial posts can be considered spamming.

 

[at Quark's]

The Borg's previous successes were based on going after groups who couldn't defend themselves, weak low hanging fruit, Starfleet was able to defend themselves, and possessed imagination, and creativity, and fortitude.

Given that the Borg have assimilated races that were both more technologically advanced and with analytic capabilities way beyond any species we've ever encountered as Federation members (see Arturis' people) (save perhaps for that mysterious 'creativity'), I can't take the interpretation that the borg only could reap low-hanging fruit seriously.

The Borg never had a chance, which the Borg would have know, if the Borg were capable of figuring anything out.

.

In that case I'd like to make the point that not a single entity or race would ever have a chance against humanity in the trek universe, because the writers cannot afford to let humanity loose (without reversing that situation somehow). So then the question if humanity prevails in any trek episode or movie isn't even applicable, only how they do it.

So, in fact, humanity is already invincible in the trek universe, it's just that it isn't made explicit at all times. No enemy that could truly threaten humanity has ever been seen in the entire Franchise.

In that perspective, viewing any confrontation Our Heroes have in the Trek universe isn't really interesting at all... save perhaps for the stuff they learn about themselves during said confrontation.

 

[T'Girl]

Riker in FC attributed the Borg's ability to assimilate 21st century Earth to the after math of the third world war, and not to "of course, they're the Borg."

Suggesting that prior to the war Humanity could have defeated them.

The Borg aren't in any way "super beings." Their technology comes from others, and their soldiers come from others.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

A big part of the problem is the depiction of the Enterprise Dee's crew as somehow being "the best of the best," and that everyone coming out of the academy wanted to be posted there, and Riker stating that people wait years to be posted there.

Pretentious as all hell.

yup

That's why I like "Voyager"--they're not the best--they're people who just want to get home. That's compelling like the Original "Battlestar Galactica"- good people wanting to find Earth.

I buy Picard as "the best". But not any of the others. Data was certainly unique.

 

[at Quark's]

Riker in FC attributed the Borg's ability to assimilate 21st century Earth to the after math of the third world war, and not to "of course, they're the Borg."

Suggesting that prior to the war Humanity could have defeated them.

The Borg aren't in any way "super beings." Their technology comes from others, and their soldiers come from others.

It's only a gut level supposition from Riker as to why they would have traveled to that point in time, and not another. Seconds later, we learn the true reason the Borg went there: to prevent First Contact. Which doesn't mean by the way that Riker was wrong, lack of resistance still could have been an important factor.

( Why they wouldn't have traveled back to, say, 1000 A.D. and assimilated earth at that point in time, is beyond me. It's not as if they would gain any significant new technology from 2063 A.D. earth anyway.)

I agree with you, though, that Borgs aren't superbeings. It's not as if their technology makes them magically invincible, it's their technology combined with numbers and the strength of the entire collective. I don't think it's a coincidence that Archer could defeat that lonely transport that was only beginning its transformation to a borg cube, with perhaps as few as 2 fully functional drones aboard and isolated from the rest of the collective (29 aboard, but most of them were assimilated only very recently and we don't know how much time transformation to a fully functional drone would take); that in no way compares to the fully functional cube of Wolf 359 that could have contained 100.000's of drones and smacked 39 starships.

According to mem-alpha, borg spheres as used in FC normally had a crew complement of 11.000 drones. Would that have been enough to take over a planet of billions (most of who would be non-combatants)? 11.000 might be few enough that they'd actually have to worry about the status of earth's defenses and hence picked that time, I don't know ...

 

[Starfury]

Cos the writers don't know naval procedures.....

Come on. It's Starfleet, not the Navy. It's an organisation 300 years in the future and the terminology obviously changed in some cases. I'm completely fine with that. It's an adventure show, not a military ad.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Please.

Star Trek borrows heavily from the US Navy in the areas of rank, customs and courtesies, procedures, and terminology. Many have noted the similarities of Starfleet missions to the British Navy in "the age of sail."

Defense, diplomacy, exploration and other traditional military activities.

In some way it actually is a "military ad."

 

[Anwar]

And if you really think that everything would be 100% the same after 300 years of being in space and mingling with various alien cultures, you're being a tad silly.

 

[Mojochi]

But the D was the flagship of the Federation. You have to have the best crew on the Flagship.

Why would "The Flagship" need to have a crew that was any more best than the crew of a non-flagship?

because it's the banner vessel, representing the virtues of the whole, because they represent the benchmark of the fleet. Seeing as Starfleet is primarily an organization of exploration & the D isn't a ship on military duty it need not have a flag officer as such, to be the banner vessel

What exactly made the Enterprise D the "flagship"

Well, there's the fact that the characters themselves flat out refer to it as such in several different episodes.

So, the mere fact that they referred to it as the flagship is what made it the flagship in the first place?

Yes, just like the fact that them referring to him as Wesley Crusher, made him Wesly Crusher

I prefer 'Too perfect' to the usual TV tropes associated with character flaws. Maybe the cast should have been more flawed but 9 out of 10 times flaws and conflict become formulaic and contrived. They fixate on specific flaws and lean heavily on episodes where two characters with opposing flaws are trapped together somewhere and fight first then have to learn to work together to solve a problem. DS9 and Voyager's most annoying moments often came from this formula.

The limitation on conflict may have stifled some good ideas but it stifled a lot more bad ones and forced them to focus on the adventure instead of just trapping Worf and Beverly in a cave or something and having them fight over mercy toward the enemy or something.

Imperfect characters, good. Specific flaws or quirks that become the focus of all character development, very very bad.

A very interesting & accurate observation

I just don't get the objection to the notion that people might like stories about characters who are the best at something. It's been a hallmark of fiction for ages. In their perspective fictions, James Bond is the best spy. Sherlock Holmes is the best detective, Rambo is the best soldier, & Kirk /Picard command the best ship & crew in Starfleet. It's not pretentious. We WANT stories about people who are the best. It's aspirational. It's badass

 

[jim-jean-ben]

Cos the writers don't know naval procedures.....

Come on. It's Starfleet, not the Navy. It's an organisation 300 years in the future and the terminology obviously changed in some cases. I'm completely fine with that. It's an adventure show, not a military ad.

Cos there aren't officers in the USN with the title Lt. Cmdr., right? just something Gene made up for the lulz...

 

[JesterFace]

Star Trek is not submarine in space... In 350 years maybe the atmosphere changed.

 

[Starfury]

Cos there aren't officers in the USN with the title Lt. Cmdr., right? just something Gene made up for the lulz...

So what? He used a few things like some of the ranks and whatever he needed to tell his story. That does however not mean, that he was under contract, or under some kind of obligation to use everything from the navy. It's what you do as a creative person. You take what you like and you change what needs to be changed to get a point across - and if your show is set in the far future, you are free to change a lot.

 

[jim-jean-ben]

Cos there aren't officers in the USN with the title Lt. Cmdr., right? just something Gene made up for the lulz...

So what? He used a few things like some of the ranks and whatever he needed to tell his story. That does however not mean, that he was under contract, or under some kind of obligation to use everything from the navy. It's what you do as a creative person. You take what you like and you change what needs to be changed to get a point across - and if your show is set in the far future, you are free to change a lot.

cool.....but then we're just discussing how this is, dont get angry at what some Web strangers do.