One thing that worked about the TOS movies is there was an ongoing story in Star Trek II, III and IV. Star Trek VI also followed plot elements from those movies. So its a bit of a shame there was no continuing story in any of the TNG films. I think Insurrection and Nemesis could have been stronger films if they were more connected.
The TNG movies should have been more connected
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
Not being connected was the least of the TNG movies' problems.
Now with that said, I would have preferred that the movies branched off from what we saw in "All Good Things..." i.e. Picard and Crusher's relationship; a love triangle between Riker, Troi, and Worf; Data exploring his emotions other than reactivating his emotion chip at absolutely the wrong time and making silly jokes and expletives, etc., Geordi grappling with new technology to restore his sight and a potential reunion with Leah Brahms...
Instead we got the Stewart and Spiner show for four movies in a row, and the five other cast members were reduced to glorified bit parts that any actor could have played.
Now with that said, I would have preferred that the movies branched off from what we saw in "All Good Things..." i.e. Picard and Crusher's relationship; a love triangle between Riker, Troi, and Worf; Data exploring his emotions other than reactivating his emotion chip at absolutely the wrong time and making silly jokes and expletives, etc., Geordi grappling with new technology to restore his sight and a potential reunion with Leah Brahms...
Instead we got the Stewart and Spiner show for four movies in a row, and the five other cast members were reduced to glorified bit parts that any actor could have played.
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I feel like we've had this discussion recently. What thread would they use to connect the movies, though? The death of an officer/friend was already done by the TOS movie.
You could argue that the Dominion War could have done this, but then, I'm not sure the DS9 showrunners would have appreciated that. Either you have it be a major part of the war, forcing DS9 to integrate what happened (which presents problems, such as when should they start referencing this and did the showrunners want their fans to feel like they had to see the movies, especially if they were not TNG fans?).
You could argue that the Dominion War could have done this, but then, I'm not sure the DS9 showrunners would have appreciated that. Either you have it be a major part of the war, forcing DS9 to integrate what happened (which presents problems, such as when should they start referencing this and did the showrunners want their fans to feel like they had to see the movies, especially if they were not TNG fans?).
TSFS is not good because it is a follow-up to TWOK (actually it is bad precisely because it is merely an afterthought, an echo) and TVH is not good because it is a (fairly lose) follow-up to TSFS. Actually it is good precisely because it has nothing to do with what has come before.
So I firmly disagree with the argument that the TNG movies should have been more connected. I am not too fond of the soapish elements of TNG. And not just in TNG, the best Trek stories are most often outstanding in the literal sense, they have little to do with any other stories.
So I firmly disagree with the argument that the TNG movies should have been more connected. I am not too fond of the soapish elements of TNG. And not just in TNG, the best Trek stories are most often outstanding in the literal sense, they have little to do with any other stories.
The Dominion War wouldn't have worked. It would have severely restricted the stories the movies could tell, and it would have turned the movies into nothing more than extensions of DS9, which would make no sense since TNG was far more popular.
Finally, the movies are also made for non-fans, and it would have made the movies too self-contained and not accessible.
So yeah, what would they have used as a connecting story? The TOS movies really AREN'T that connected except for the middle trilogy, and that wasn't even by design.(Nimoy decided after TWOK he wanted to continue in the series, so they made a movie to bring him back.)
I wouldn't have minded seeing more interconnectedness as well, however I don't think that was the deal breaker with the TNG movies. More so than having a story arc, perhaps character arcs would've sufficed to make the entire run of movies feel more like parts of some wonderful whole.
To some extent we did get something of a character arc with Riker and Troi, from Insurrection to Nemesis. I think Picard's arc, less noticeable, could arguably have happened from him Generations to Nemesis with him facing mortality/the end of his family line in Genesis, finding rejuvenation in Insurrection, and having to literally kill his 'son' Shinzon in Nemesis, but it was never adequately played up. And perhaps Data, with the fitful emotion chip thing not panning out, learned finally how to be human with his ultimate sacrifice in Nemesis, but that wasn't adequately done either. Geordi, Worf, and Crusher didn't get anything.
To some extent we did get something of a character arc with Riker and Troi, from Insurrection to Nemesis. I think Picard's arc, less noticeable, could arguably have happened from him Generations to Nemesis with him facing mortality/the end of his family line in Genesis, finding rejuvenation in Insurrection, and having to literally kill his 'son' Shinzon in Nemesis, but it was never adequately played up. And perhaps Data, with the fitful emotion chip thing not panning out, learned finally how to be human with his ultimate sacrifice in Nemesis, but that wasn't adequately done either. Geordi, Worf, and Crusher didn't get anything.
Insurrection could have been the opening act of a story arc ultimately revealing a conspiracy at the highest levels of the Federation.
That is not a bad idea. I have heard the complaint that TNG movies were like 2 hour episodes. To a large extent I agree and I personally don't see that as a bed thing because I do enjoy those movies, but I do understand why that didn't work on the big screen. Not that I have a clue to how to have fixed that.
Actually, it's a better place to start a story arc (the Federation Council making some morally questionable deals) than the two previous TNG movies. IMO, a continuation of the storyline in Generations would wind up being "The Search for Kirk," and a follow-up to First Contact runs the risk of treating the Borg the same way VOY did.
The only interesting thread that could've come out of Insurrection is the trial of Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
And an investigation of the Federation Council if the Briar Patch incident was only the tip of something larger and fishier.
But what would have been the conspiracy? The events in INS seemed pretty isolated. Is the UFP going around plotting removals of various cultures around the Quadrant or something?
There just wasn't enough "there" to make another whole movie. It would have been just an entirely new plot about corruption in the UFP, which would then have been the third Trek movie to focus on a "conspiracy" within the last five. It would have started to get repetitive, plus INS kind of bombed and wasn't well-received. Why jump off from that movie and make an arc?
Whatever the flaws of "Nemesis," I'm at least glad that they chose to go an entirely different direction than they did for "Insurrection."
They are the law making body of the Federation. Many laws are open to interpretation and those that aren't, they could merely change.
So unless you're going to go down the path that a law making body can't create and change laws as circumstances dictate, you're going to have a rather dull follow-up.
Hell, it would be a dull follow-up either way.
The Prime Directive may be Starfleet General Order One, but there's no indication that it is part of the Federation charter. So I doubt that it would take more than a simple up or down vote to change or eliminate it.
That's how all conspiracies begin, with a seemingly isolated incident that's later discovered to be connected to something larger.
The fact that the Federation was condoning such an act is, as Picard said, a betrayal of the very principles the Federation was established upon. That can be definitely be taken further with a story that something isn't quite right within the Federation (with Insurrection as the first act, a second act could reveal the Federation participating in some very un-Federation-like things). It's the classic "Do the ends justify the means?" moral dilemma.Is the UFP going around plotting removals of various cultures around the Quadrant or something?
Yup.
Nope. Actually, the only "conspiracy" Trek movie was Star Trek VI. The Genesis Project was a scientific project that became the obsession of Khan (and later the Klingons) for use as a doomsday weapon. We've had far more stories about trying to stop a weapon of mass destruction than anything else in the Trek films.
I disagree.
Picard vs. the establishment is a typical TNG theme but I do not think that it was ever about discovering a conspiracy. It was rather about Picard being a very principled man who opposed any slow erosion of these very principles. I think that the events of INS are also about the latter and do not imply any conspiracy. The council is probably war weary and ready to do dubious things to gain new allies and Dougherty and perhaps some other Admirals are willing to do the ugly shit the council does not really wanna know.
Picard forced the council to actually see the things it somehow knew would happen but disavowed. It's kinda like with Wikileaks, we did not really learn anything new but because of them we could not pretend anymore that we do not know.
Picard forced the council to actually see the things it somehow knew would happen but disavowed. It's kinda like with Wikileaks, we did not really learn anything new but because of them we could not pretend anymore that we do not know.
STVI and STIX both focused on a conspiracy, that's the very thing we're discussing in this thread. So yeah, a STX that focused on a conspiracy would have been the third in five movies.
I don't want to turn this into another debate on the ludicrousness of the "dilemma" of INS, BillJ knows the madness which leads down that path.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree that there was any basis on which to investigate "corruption" in the UFP. But I can't figure what they would have done with it in any event to make it remotely interesting.
