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the thin-gay line

Here is the list again, and it is a list that includes those who she suspects to be BISEXUAL as well.

Picard? His sexuality has been debated on this site before. She is not the first one to suggest old baldy could be bi.

Bashir? Again, his sexuallity has been debated before. She isn't the first.

Garak? Well...he does have that gay vibe, and Robinson him self has touched on it.

7/9. Again, her sexuality has been discussed (even fantasized) about.

Dukat? Not sure about that one. I get no 'vibe' there. How she does? I don't know. I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you.

T'pol. Same as 7/9.

Alexander? mmmmm...I can see this one.

Wesley. Again, this has often been debated on this site...so she isn't the first.

Jake. I don't see it.

Q? Oh definately. He even states he should have appeared as a woman. That alone puts him on the 'bi' side of the vibe. He plays Q about as trampy as Depp's Captain jack. And he has a bi vibe too..

Beverly. She leaves the possibility open in her Trill moment, or so some have said...I agree

Troi? Same as 7/9 and T'pol.

Sorry kate, but I think the more I read my wife's list? I think she was only absolutely wrong with Dukat and Jake. Thats not a bad record, and certainly better than 50%

Rob..

But Rob, I don't understand...You seem to be saying that your wife is "right" because other people have speculated the same thing. But what does that have to do with anything? Do you think that the fact that some people have said A and others have said B automatically validates A and B?

Because it doesn't. It neither validates them nor invalidates them. As you know, people speculate about all kinds of stuff, and so the fact that some have debated this character or that one proves only one thing: There are people who enjoy speculating about this character or that one.

You see what I mean? I think you're saying that "Other people have thought the same thing!" proves something. But it doesn't - not in and of itself. I'll grant you that if most people have thought the same thing, or a significant number (and how you define that, I have no idea), you might be on to something. But that there has been speculation proves nothing except that people (except for me, apparently ;) ) like to speculate.

For what it's worth, I agree with some of them, too - Q, for example (although I'd say he is neither gay nor straight nor bisexual but is instead able to assume whatever sexuality, including none at all, that fits his purpose at any given moment - I mean, he can do and be whatever he wants, right? and why should he consider himself tied down to human/mortal/carbon-based lifeform standards of sexuality since he's none of those things?), and quite possibly Garak.

The old saying is, "There's no smoke without fire." Well, when it comes to this sort of speculation, you can actually have a lot of smoke and zero fire. People just like to speculate about these things, and so long as they are doing it in a lighthearted and nonjudgmental way about fictional characters, as you and your wife do, it probably doesn't do any harm. But don't take "Other people have thought the same thing!" as proof of anything except that other people have thought the same thing.
 
I always find it funny when people try to find the gayness in trek where it doesn't exist. I agree that it's a shame society and the studio weren't more open to having realistic gay characters but I think it is a bit ridiculous to read all this gayness into every little look and piece of dialogue in the show.

Just to be clear, I am not at all against there being gay characters, I just wish people would stop inventing them where they never existed.

It's called "alternative readings", and it has a long tradition in dealing with stories. For gay people, who have long lived with not seeing themselves portrayed in fiction, and who have also dealt with being forced into closeted lifestyles which meant developing behaviors to appear to fit in with the norm of heterosexuality, it's only natural to sift through mainstream fiction and imagine - could this beloved character just be pretending to be straight, the way I have to pretend to be straight?

It's fiction - any character can be gay or straight in the mind of the viewer. What someone else sees, or talks about seeing is just what they see.

As for characters with broader sexualities (I personally find the idea tha people are simply "gay" or "straight" rather silly - everyone exists on a spectrum of sexuality with homosexual at one end and heterosexual at the other end and really only a very few people are 100% at one end of the spectrum - everyone else is bisexual. See the pioneering work of Alfred Kinsey and the Kinsey scale of sexuality):

Everyone knows Kirk and Spock swung both ways, but very likely only for each other when it came to gay sex.

Riker would bang anyone, so long as s/he wasn't human. He only dug aliens.

Troi, I'm sure, being that Betazoids were far more sexual and had naked weddings, was probably not only bi but had engaged in a few orgies in her day.

We have clear evidence that Dax was bi.

I'm sure Klingons, like many warrior societies, have homosexual contact during early training periods in which people are trained in same sex communities. Worf would have missed out on this, of course, but all the other Klingons we met surely went through a homosexual period.

I'm pretty sure Quark was straight, but then he had the whole sex change thing, so he may have become more broadminded after that.

Archer was sooooooo gay - but totally closeted. It's why he was such a dork. Accept yourself, man, and move on!
 
everyone exists on a spectrum of sexuality with homosexual at one end and heterosexual at the other end and really only a very few people are 100% at one end of the spectrum
A more inclusive model is a square, with heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, and asexuality at the corners.
 
Ummm..yeah, I know. But we are all human. And let me stress, it doesn't affect our friendship with anyone. A couple of our best friends are gay and, trust me, they are quite cool with her 'gay vibe' thing. They find it quite funny, and gasp, they love to point out to us who they think is gay and who isn't. So it does go both ways..and its fun..especially at the Comic-con, which is next week, where you KNOW its like shooting ducks in an overstuffed fish farm!

Rob

I guess it comes down to preferences - personality preferences, that is, not sexual ones. To me, speculating, even innocently, about somebody's sexual preference is just...well, kind of boring, unless it has some relevance to me. So sure, the sexual preference of someone I'm interested in or who I am interested in fixing a friend up with would have relevance, and even that of a TV character might have relevance insofar as it affects the plot or illuminates the character, but other than that...eh. Not so much.

I don't mean to spoil you guys' innocent fun. But on the other hand, there is no way that allllllll those characters you mentioned truly gave off a "gay vibe." Sorry, but that's just not possible. So I also suspect your wife of having some "messin' with people's heads" fun. I don't intend that to be an insult, by the way. Maybe she enjoys messin' with yours. It's a wife's perogative, after all.

Here is the list again, and it is a list that includes those who she suspects to be BISEXUAL as well.

Picard? His sexuality has been debated on this site before. She is not the first one to suggest old baldy could be bi.

Bashir? Again, his sexuallity has been debated before. She isn't the first.

Garak? Well...he does have that gay vibe, and Robinson him self has touched on it.

7/9. Again, her sexuality has been discussed (even fantasized) about.

Dukat? Not sure about that one. I get no 'vibe' there. How she does? I don't know. I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you.

T'pol. Same as 7/9.

Alexander? mmmmm...I can see this one.

Wesley. Again, this has often been debated on this site...so she isn't the first.

Jake. I don't see it.

Q? Oh definately. He even states he should have appeared as a woman. That alone puts him on the 'bi' side of the vibe. He plays Q about as trampy as Depp's Captain jack. And he has a bi vibe too..

Beverly. She leaves the possibility open in her Trill moment, or so some have said...I agree

Troi? Same as 7/9 and T'pol.

Sorry kate, but I think the more I read my wife's list? I think she was only absolutely wrong with Dukat and Jake. Thats not a bad record, and certainly better than 50%

Rob..
Hmmm... OK, let's see why someone might think those people were bisexual....

Picard? Um... Did Famke Janssen have the ability to change genders as well?

Beverly Crusher? Well... she likes male ghosts and Picard, and can't deal with having a relationship with a Trill after "he" becomes a "she".

Wesley? Um... you might have misunderstood people who said his character was "gay" or "the gayest thing on Star Trek" or something like that. :p

Troi/7 of 9/T'Pol? :confused: Men are fantasizing about them smooching another woman?

Dukat? Into Bajoran women, but mostly obsessed with himself. Does being in love with oneself make one gay/bi? :rommie:

BTW Kirk's greatest love is an inanimate object - what does that make him?
 
What does it really matter? Does one fire phasers better if they are gay or straight?
One of the things in Star Trek is acceptance of all, whether gay, straight, trisexual,quadrosexual or freaking pink...What does it matter?
Does it make the stories any less because we dont know the characters sexual orientation?
You all are judging.
A Starfleet officer has a duty to the Federation. Thats IT.
Isn't Star Trek above this kind of debate? Accept all for who they are.
Green, blue, a rock (is a Horta gay?LOL),or energy, Are Q gay?
IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER, except to those that have other agendas.
'Nuff said
 
What does it really matter? Does one fire phasers better if they are gay or straight?
One of the things in Star Trek is acceptance of all, whether gay, straight, trisexual,quadrosexual or freaking pink...What does it matter?
Does it make the stories any less because we dont know the characters sexual orientation?
You all are judging.
A Starfleet officer has a duty to the Federation. Thats IT.
Isn't Star Trek above this kind of debate? Accept all for who they are.
Green, blue, a rock (is a Horta gay?LOL),or energy, Are Q gay?
IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER, except to those that have other agendas.
'Nuff said

I think some people just like speculating. :)
 
Speculation is all good...
I, for one, am trying to find a device, (not invented yet) that can measure the depth of my apathy for this subject.
What if they're all gay?
Why is that different from being straight?
WHY DOES IT MATTER?
And why should any one care?
Riker: Sir , shall I order sheilds?
Picard: Do you have the purple ones?
Riker: ummm no sir
Picard: well then, No purple shields..we'll ride it out...Can I get puce?

Kirk: Damnit Spock, where is that anomaly?
Spock: Sir, I do not know
Kirk: you DONT know? Spock, what's wrong?
Spock: The wavelengths we are receiving dont match my shirt
Kirk: Wha..um fragle nap
Spock: You are being illogical, but it doesnt match my shirt, and any phaser fire will ruin my outfit
Kirk: What do you think it will do to MINE?
Spock: I'm sorry, Sir, the homosexual people are demanding i take their
issues above the Enterprises' safety...Though Puce might work...
Kirk: FIRE
Spock: We missed, sir. To my chagrin, I was perfoming an act of prejudice because the same sex crew determined it would'nt work without their acknowledgement...the target lock was moved...
Kirk: DAMN!!! Like this life isnt hard enough!
Spock: Shall i retarget, Sir?
Kirk: No, we'll just get in more trouble...I wont wipe out the planet...
Spock: Jim, I don't understand...according to these readings...One is all female, and the other is all male...
Kirk: that would be like the people that took your brain...
Spock: apparently, that is all too common
Kirk: how do we avoid it?
Spock: It seems that by accepting these parameters, no drastic change will happen for roughly 18,546 years...
Kirk: That's a long time, Spock
Spock: Indeed, Captain.
 
It matters because for centuries, LGBT individuals have been forced to hide themselves and to accept being invisible in media and in storytelling. The invisibility of LGBT characters in fiction is a mechanism that society uses to deny the validity of their existence -- after all, if they don't make up our popular culture, they must just be some weird people we don't need to give equal rights.

LGBT individuals need to be visible in storytelling in order to achieve complete social equality. Further, Star Trek, as a pop culture narrative that has always prided itself on its tolerance, acceptance, and diversity, has a unique moral obligation to do its part to help reverse the invisibility of LGBT individuals in order to help serve the cause of equal rights that it served when it incorporated non-European characters (thereby reversing THEIR invisibility).
 
I'm sorry, I just dont understand why this has any bearing (sp?)
I do agree that hetero relationships have LOTS of attention where none is given to homo relationships. My problem is that in trying to force the issue, it goes against our whole credo: acceptance of all, no matter what.
Yes, I understand the societal miasma that surrounds this, but I reiterate...
WHY DOES IT MATTER, in our Star Trek world?
I guess some just wanna see a "Romeo & Julio" story. I'm all for that.
But as you said, is the general public? It is sad that most would be (were) glued to the set if it was "Rhonda & Juliet"
I had thought Star Trek people were beyond this..live and learn
 
I'm sorry, I just dont understand why this has any bearing (sp?)
I do agree that hetero relationships have LOTS of attention where none is given to homo relationships. My problem is that in trying to force the issue, it goes against our whole credo: acceptance of all, no matter what.

No, it confirms that credo. You can't claim that you accept everyone if you refuse to acknowledge that 10% of the human race -- a percentage that is constant throughout all cultures -- even exists.

What you're saying is like claiming that it goes against a belief in the equality of the sexes to depict women on TV.

WHY DOES IT MATTER, in our Star Trek world?

In-universe, being an LGBT doesn't matter insofar as you're not discriminated against or denied equal treatment, any more than dark skin matters. But Star Trek still has an obligation to depict non-European ethnicities just like it still has an obligation to depict LGBT individuals; Star Trek needs to be concerned both with the meaning of things it does in-universe and in the real world.
 
I completely agree that Trek needs to - has an obligation to - show LGBT people. It's silly that it doesn't, IMO (although at least some of the books do now).

But I have to say that I don't believe that "detecting" non-heterosexuality where there is none helps that at all, at least not for society as a whole. In fact, I think it's a distraction. Instead of helping people to consider or talk about these issues in a semi-realistic way, it becomes gossip-column-style speculation about virtually every male-male friendship and almost every female-female friendship in Trek. Yeah, having no openly gay characters is ridiculous and harmful, but I also think there is potential harm in never ever letting any two characters simply be friends. I mean, there are people who are just friends in real life, right? Just as there are people who aren't just friends.
 
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I completely agree that Trek needs to - has an obligation to - show LGBT people. It's silly that it doesn't, IMO (although at least some of the books do now).

But I have to say that I don't believe that "detecting" non-heterosexuality where there is none helps that at all, at least not for society as a whole. In fact, I think it's a distraction. Instead of helping people to consider or talk about these issues in a semi-realistic way, it becomes gossip-column-style speculation about virtually every male-male friendship and almost every female-female friendship in Trek . Yeah, having no openly gay characters is ridiculous and harmful, but I also think there is potential harm in never ever letting any two characters simply be friends. I mean, there are people who are just friends in real life, too, right? Just as there are people who aren't just friends.
QFT.

This is what annoys me in RL with all those gossip columns, Perez Hilton, IMDB 'is he gay?' threads and so on. It really is not helpful at all, on the contrary. Neither is the constant sensationalism with which homosexuality and bisexuality are treated in the media. I include 'slash' in that category, as well as the habit of finding reasons for hot females to kiss each other for various reasons on TV and in movies. DS9, much as I love it, didn't go very well with its Mirror episodes and their evil characters who happened to be bisexual or lesbian (in addition to being promiscuous) while their 'good' counterparts were straight. Which is not even logical. :rolleyes::vulcan:
 
Even not knowing Takei was gay in reality, I always got a strange gay vibe from Sulu. I don't know what it is but something about him always made me think he got a little more excited when a guy would sit next to him or walk by.
 
I never got the sense that Sulu was gay. He was way too into Ilia in TMP to be gay.
 
I know he wsn't actually gay in the show but, I don't know, something about the way he moved....not sure, I can't pinpoint it.

:(
 
I never got the sense that Sulu was gay. He was way too into Ilia in TMP to be gay.
He was most definitely into Uhura in TOS - and that included both prime universe Sulu ("The Naked Time") and evil Mirror Sulu. George Takei is gay, Sulu was not. I don't know why people can't see the difference between an actor and a character. Plenty of straight actors have convincingly played gays and plenty of gay actors have convincinlgy played straights.
 
He certainly gave me the the impression, back in the day, that he found Uhura hot hot hot. Did a good job at it, too!
 
I'm very careful with getting gay vibes from TV characters. If I think a TV character is gay, there must be a lot of subtext. The only Trek characters I think are gay/bisexual are Garak, Bashir, Q, Jadzia Dax and possibly most joined Trills who have had experience about being both a man and a woman (Garak is gay, the others are bi).

The Q could probably be sexually attracted to a mouse (Q did consider having children with animals).

Q seems to love Picard ("If I had known you better, I would have appeared to you as a woman"). He appeared in bed with Picard at least twice. Picard, on the other hand, is straight.

Garak and Bashir are obviously in love with each other. In their first scene Garak starts talking to Bashir, who is sitting alone in the Replimat. He puts his hands on Bashir's shoulders and "is glad to have made such an interesting new friend today". Afterwards, Bashir runs to ops and talks about how Garak chose to talk with him out of all the people in the Replimat. Is there anyone who doesn't see it? Bashir has had believable relationships with women but I just can't believe Garak loves Ziyal.

Most joined Trills could easily be bi. I have no idea how the symbiont itself affects the host's sexuality but Jadzia Dax did love a woman with whom she had been in love as a man (Tobin Dax). The same thing could affect all joined Trills.

As for other characters, I think most people aren't 100% gay or straight. I didn't see any homoerotic subtext between Kirk and Spock when I watched TOS or between Bashir and O'Brien but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
 
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