The Star Wars problem

[Ithekro]

Then it's just poor filmmaking, because the way it plays out JJ emphasizes the trooper dying in Finn's arms and repeatedly focuses on the finger blood-painted helmet, including in the scene where he takes his helmet off and hyperventilates.

No.

He first freaked out from his companions death, but what turns him totally against the First Order is the absolute slaughter of the village. Every man, woman, and child. That's what turns Finn off the First Order. He couldn't bring himself to shoot at the villagers. he didn't want their blood on his hand...or helmet. (I believe it was Poe that killed the other stormtrooper.)

 

[Shinzon4u]

No.

He first freaked out from his companions death, but what turns him totally against the First Order is the absolute slaughter of the village. Every man, woman, and child. That's what turns Finn off the First Order. He couldn't bring himself to shoot at the villagers. he didn't want their blood on his hand...or helmet. (I believe it was Poe that killed the other stormtrooper.)

But then why include the scene with the trooper dying in his arms? It tells the viewer that his motivation is shock from his compatriot touching him and bleeding on him as he died.

 

[Ithekro]

That was step A. Step B was the slaughter of the villagers.

 

[Shinzon4u]

That was step A. Step B was the slaughter of the villagers.

...And yet he is fine with killing his compatriots later.

 

[USS Firefly]

Maybe because they slaugter the villagers?

 

[Ithekro]

...And yet he is fine with killing his compatriots later.

Yes, because of their wanton slaughter of others which he wants no longer want to be part of. People who did nothing to the First Order save have a map to a Jedi. People who fight back when attacked.

He's fighting back by the time he's with Solo. The First Order just raised what was basically the bar he was just in, and he witnessed the power (at a distance) of Starkiller Base blowing up planets. Finn is fighting back against those that would slaughter people for no real reason. Taking up arms against the oppressors and murders.

 

[fireproof78]

...And yet he is fine with killing his compatriots later.

Because he found something to fight for. When he left the "Finalizer" with Poe all he wanted to do was escape. Then, he found people that he cared about, and was willing to fight for them. In so doing, he found a cause that he believed in enough to kill for, and people he was willing to defend and kill for.

He doesn't "flip a switch" and start killing his compatriots on Jakku-that would be a completely different movie. Probably part of the Han Solo movie. Most of the film he is trying to run away, until the First Order destroys Hosnian Prime and captures Rey. Then he decides to fight.

It's not a Jakku then immediately killing moment. It's a lot of the movie trying to run, then deciding to fight.

 

[Shinzon4u]

You guys are completely ignoring my point. If his motivation was what you say it was, the opening Jakku scene would have just been him freaked out by the killing of the villagers. JJ wouldn't have focused on or even shot the scene with his compatriot dying in his arms, because that guys blood is then prominent on his helmet in the next scene on the ship when he takes his helmet off and decides to leave, indicating that his (presumably) friend or acquaintance dying in his arms made him decide to change.

Visuals tell the story in film. If that wasn't the intended motivation, JJ wouldn't have shot the "dying in arms" scene at all or had the blood on the helmet so prominently in the next scene, JJ would have just shown Finn not firing on the villagers.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure what to tell you then. I took it as a multi-faceted decision process, where Finn had decided not to kill for the First Order, is shocked by the death of his compatriot, and the wanton cruelty of the FO. He wanted to escape.

It's not a black or white decision process. He went through several different emotions, including what he was willing to kill for. I'm going off of what Finn also says in the film, not just the filmmaking.

 

[Ithekro]

The man dying is part of what drove Finn to escape. That was all.

The blood on the helmet was I think more for the audience so we could tell which trooper we were looking at, since they are almost all identical aside from Phasma (who is taller and Chrome) Finn's bloody helmet was actual so we could know which trooper we were suppose to be watching.

 

[Reverend]

One of the short stories goes into Finn's background and mentality a bit more, but everything you need to understand him is right there in the movie.

He's not a believer in the First Order. Never was. Up until very recently, he'd never really questioned his place in the galaxy in any depth. He was a Stormtrooper, which to him means training, routine, discipline and team work. That was his assigned role and for the most part he accepted it. Jakku was his first live fire engagement and it was horrifying.
His compatriot dying right in front of him (and for what!?) was the first time he was ever truly cognisant. It snapped him out of his unthinking state and into blinding awareness of the scene surrounding him. Indeed the magnitude of his distress was so great it sent a ripple through the force that even Kylo could sense. This is his first turning point.

As for later turning on and even killing his former compatriots; as other have said this is his second turning point. Where he overcomes his fear and shame and chooses to fight in the defence of others in the name of what he feels is right. Something he never felt as a Stormtrooper.

One of the key traits to understanding Finn is his basic need to be helpful. To work as part of a team. It's what made him such a good trooper in the simulations and we see that trait is still present even while he's still running. First with Poe, then with Rey and even later with the pirate crew where he seems positively eager to help them load their ship.

 

[Shinzon4u]

One of the short stories goes into Finn's background and mentality a bit more, but everything you need to understand him is right there in the movie.

He's not a believer in the First Order. Never was. Up until very recently, he'd never really questioned his place in the galaxy in any depth. He was a Stormtrooper, which to him means training, routine, discipline and team work. That was his assigned role and for the most part he accepted it. Jakku was his first live fire engagement and it was horrifying.
His compatriot dying right in front of him (and for what!?) was the first time he was ever truly cognisant. It snapped him out of his unthinking state and into blinding awareness of the scene surrounding him. Indeed the magnitude of his distress was so great it sent a ripple through the force that even Kylo could sense. This is his first turning point.

As for later turning on and even killing his former compatriots; as other have said this is his second turning point. Where he overcomes his fear and shame and chooses to fight in the defence of others in the name of what he feels is right. Something he never felt as a Stormtrooper.

One of the key traits to understanding Finn is his basic need to be helpful. To work as part of a team. It's what made him such a good trooper in the simulations and we see that trait is still present even while he's still running. First with Poe, then with Rey and even later with the pirate crew where he seems positively eager to help them load their ship.

This ISN'T explained in the film though. It's the same with the whole political situation in the galaxy. The movie doesn't make us care about Hosnian Prime and it doesn't other to explain the post-empire galactic power shift. In their haste to be the exact opposite of the PT they forgot the movies NEED at least a semblance of context. Even in ANH there is a whole scene dedicated to explaining the political landscape of the galaxy ("the regional governors...").
TFA has absolutely no substance. There's nothing to care about because there is no context.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The movie doesn't make us care about Hosnian Prime and it doesn't other to explain the post-empire galactic power shift. In their haste to be the exact opposite of the PT they forgot the movies NEED at least a semblance of context. Even in ANH there is a whole scene dedicated to explaining the political landscape of the galaxy ("the regional governors...").

I absolutely agree with this part. The political backstory was woefully under-established.

 

[Skywalker]

This ISN'T explained in the film though. It's the same with the whole political situation in the galaxy. The movie doesn't make us care about Hosnian Prime and it doesn't other to explain the post-empire galactic power shift. In their haste to be the exact opposite of the PT they forgot the movies NEED at least a semblance of context. Even in ANH there is a whole scene dedicated to explaining the political landscape of the galaxy ("the regional governors...").
TFA has absolutely no substance. There's nothing to care about because there is no context.

Well, no, it is explained in the film. We don't need Finn to tell us these things because all of it is very clearly conveyed over the course of the movie. Show, don't tell. TFA wasn't perfect (I agree that it really should have done a better job of explaining that whole "we fight the First Order, but we're not really the Republic, but the Republic kinda-sorta informally backs us" deal) but it got this part 100% right.

 

[fireproof78]

This ISN'T explained in the film though. It's the same with the whole political situation in the galaxy. The movie doesn't make us care about Hosnian Prime and it doesn't other to explain the post-empire galactic power shift. In their haste to be the exact opposite of the PT they forgot the movies NEED at least a semblance of context. Even in ANH there is a whole scene dedicated to explaining the political landscape of the galaxy ("the regional governors...").
TFA has absolutely no substance. There's nothing to care about because there is no context.

While I agree about the political subtext, I completely disagree that it has no substance. Each of the characters has their own arc, the galaxy is definitely in turmoil, and I'm hooked because I haven't seen how the galaxy was thrown in to turmoil. Since this is the first film in a trilogy, I'm really not expecting it to be 100% self-contained.

As for Finn, his motivation is explained well enough in the film for me and most other reviewers that I have read. So, YMMV and clearly does.

I absolutely agree with this part. The political backstory was woefully under-established.

Well, no, it is explained in the film. We don't need Finn to tell us these things because all of it is very clearly conveyed over the course of the movie. Show, don't tell. TFA wasn't perfect (I agree that it really should have done a better job of explaining that whole "we fight the First Order, but we're not really the Republic, but the Republic kinda-sorta informally backs us" deal) but it got this part 100% right.

Yes, for once, we needed more political discussion in a Star Wars film.

 

[Reverend]

I have to say I'm not sure what the poorly defined political backstory has to do with Finn's character arc. I don't think that level of context was required to understand his motivations.
Leia's maybe, but not Finn's.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I have to say I'm not sure what the poorly defined political backstory has to do with Finn's character arc. I don't think that level of context was required to understand his motivations.
Leia's maybe, but not Finn's.

I think it was intended to be another example of unexplained stuff, perhaps in an attempt to establish a pattern of not explaining things well enough.

---

For myself, the only thing I was left wondering about Finn's motivation was why the stormtrooper conditioning failed on him but not everybody else. It's not that there aren't reasonable explanations, but I would have liked to have heard one. It would have taken a fraction of the time to adequately address compared to the other references to the conditioning that were already in the film.

 

[Reverend]

For myself, the only thing I was left wondering about Finn's motivation was why the stormtrooper conditioning failed on him but not everybody else. It's not that there aren't reasonable explanations, but I would have liked to have heard one. It would have taken a fraction of the time to adequately address compared to the other references to the conditioning that were already in the film.

The problem with that approach is that in order to explain why he broke his conditioning, one must also explain what being conditioned entails, all within the context of the story. That's two extra layers of exposition which would just be superfluous. We saw what we needed to see and they inferred enough so those with half a brain know what's going on.

That would also presuppose that all Stormtroopers are brainwashed or indoctrinated in the 'Manchurian Candidate'/'Clockwork Orange' sense. From what I've gathered from the ancillary material, that doesn't appear to be the case. It seems that that only "reeducate" those who have displayed aberrant behaviour. As Phasma states in the movie, this was Finn's first sign of non-conformity, so they never had to do it.
Granted it begs the question: "if they have the capability, why don't they do it as a matter of course?" but it could be as simple as the procedure can have undesirable side-effects, so they don't use it unless they have to.

 

[Shinzon4u]

From what I've gathered from the ancillary material

This is at least the second time in this thread someone has said something like this. I've also been referred to the supplementary material by people on other sites when talking about things not in this movie.
I think that says something about TFA.

 

[Ithekro]

No, that says something about science fiction fans. Be it Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, whatever, fans will be the ones to look into novels, visual dictionaries, games, cartoons, comics, or what have you to gain more knowledge. Most isn't needed, but can help with the discussion as it gives backup information in the topic. And sometimes that material allows one to have a better grasp on the matter than is possible within the time frame of an action/adventure movie.