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The Star Trek Books FAQ

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Posted by CaptainHawk1:
I can't take issue with any of that. The reality is...there i no canon...period. It gets changed and convoluted too many times even on TV and film.

No. The reality is that the canon is, simply and literally, the actual content of filmed and televised Star Trek. That canon is not absolutely consistent; no canon is (Biblical canon least of all). But it is what defines the "reality" of the series' universe.

The problem is that people insist on misdefining "canon" to mean any number of other things, such as "What I want to be real Trek" or "That which is absolutely consistent and unquestionable" or "That which Paramount commands us to obey." You're right that none of those concepts have real meaning or functionality here, but none of those concepts equates with canon. There is a canon; the canon is, plain and simple, the show itself. The original work, as opposed to the secondary works derived from or interpreting it. That is what the word "canon" actually means.

I think it's an issue of common sense. You can't consider novels part of the official Universe period. But, it would seem to meake sense to me to consider the reference materials written bt Trek staff official even if they do get contradicted in the fuure.

Saying that an individual considers something official is as paradoxical as saying that an individual considers something canonical. "Official" means that it has the cachet of an office, of the company or agency that has authority over the matter. If something is official, it's because Paramount says it's official, not because you or I think it should be.

And as I said, the staff-written reference materials are considered official by Paramount, in that tie-in creators are instructed to conform to their conjectures where not overtly contradicted by canon. But "official" is a far cry from "canonical," and the two don't have that much to do with each other.

The truth is that you, Pocketbooks and the fans really have no more say in what is canon and what isn't than PDE.

And I'm not deciding what is canon, I'm simply explaining the definition of the word. Canon literally means the core text, the essential work or body of work, exclusive of anything external or supplementary to that essential body. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of the literal dictionary definition of the word "canon" in general terms. The decision as to what actually constitutes the core text lies in the hands of the people responsible for creating that text, so they can decide what the canon contains; but what the word "canon" means in basic terms is a matter of established definition, not individual opinion.

WHo decided this at PDE and why has been allowed to be up there for 5 years if its not accurate? After all they do represent Star Trek and Paramount.

"Represent?" That's a bit pretentious. It's an entertainment site tying into a show. It's meant to be entertaining, not to stand for some deep principle or embody the core values of the corporation or something. It's just supply trying to meet demand. It's a business venture.

And let's face it, only a tiny minority of fans even cares to debate what is or isn't canon. The issue would only come up in the minds of fans who are aware of supplemental/tie-in materials beyond the show and are curious to know how it relates to the show itself. But according to estimates posted here by former Pocket editor John Ordover, such tie-ins are generally read by only two percent of a show's viewing audience. So probably over 95 percent of Trek viewers have no particular interest in the question of canon, and a very large percentage of those have probably never even heard the word applied in this context.

So it's supply and demand. Most Trek viewers couldn't care less about the Great Canon Debate, so ensuring accurate information about it is not going to be at the tippy-tip-top of Startrek.com's priority list. It's a big site; they've got a lot of other stuff to do.
 
Posted by CaptainHawk1:
I think it's an issue of common sense. You can't consider novels part of the official Universe period. But, it would seem to meake sense to me to consider the reference materials written bt Trek staff official even if they do get contradicted in the fuure.

Now that you've defined your own "personal continuity", be prepared for people who don't agree with you. :)

The truth is that you, Pocketbooks and the fans really have no more say in what is canon and what isn't than PDE. WHo decided this at PDE and why has been allowed to be up there for 5 years if its not accurate? After all they do represent Star Trek and Paramount. But, again, I think it goes to common sense and as you pointed out each individuals own interpretation.

I just like the debate.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that there was actually room for debate on what the staff writers had to take into consideration in their work? The only thing that seems to be questionable is the number of people thinking their own personal continuity constitutes "canon", when that term really doesn't pertain to them in the slightest. :cool:
 
Posted by CaptainHawk1:
Well, thank you for taking that quote totally out of context. :vulcan:

You didn't answer the question.

and....

Forgive me for not being a telepath. I assumed that when you said you agreed with what he said, that you meant that you agreed with it.

If you agree that canon has no bearing on fans then as a fan why are you discussing it? Or am I unaware that you are actually Rick Berman or Brannon Braga or someone working on the shows/movies?
 
To respond to all 3 of you. Very simply, an official Paramount site, Star Tek.com, defines what is considered canon in the Star Trek Universe. Everyone has continued to question the validity of that source with nothing to back up their assertions other than their own understanding of what 'canon' is. And this argument about the literal definition of 'canon' is moot because that is not how the owner of the property defines 'canon.' Regardless of the printed materials, they don't even consider TAS canon! What makes TAS different than the other on screen Trek? You can't dispute these facts by conjecture and off-handed comments made by Trek writers.

Show me an official Pramount press release that disputes what an affiliate of Paramount says on the property's official website, then I'll be glad to ignore st.com.

Regardless of this, may I ask a question? Why all of the 'pretentious' vitriol. What, I can't have an opinion based on the facts I see?

This isn't life and death sh*t, here. Why does everyone seem so angry?

Chill out... it's only Star Trek.

-Shawn :borg:
 
^ Because it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not in any way, shape, or form relevant to anything unless you're actually writing something in the Trek universe, and because somebody shows up every three-and-a-half seconds like clockwork and drags this discussion out all over again, and those of us who've been on the board for more than three-and-a-half seconds are tired of repeating ourselves for the benefit of people who can't be bothered to come up with new topics for discussion that actually matter, preferring to beat a very very very very dead horse.
 
Maybe there should just be a stickied thread for the canon debate. People are going to constantly be brining it up anyways - why not confine it to a single thread?
 
Posted by elaithin:
Maybe there should just be a stickied thread for the canon debate. People are going to constantly be brining it up anyways - why not confine it to a single thread?
Because one thread is one thread too many.

Although I suppose a thread dedicated to the canon debate could function akin to a roach motel... :devil:
 
Posted by CaptainHawk1:
To respond to all 3 of you. Very simply, an official Paramount site, Star Tek.com, defines what is considered canon in the Star Trek Universe.

Very simply, no it doesn't. The errors in this assumption have been clearly explained to you. One outdated document on an entertainment site put together by some people hired by Paramount to help promote one of its television shows does not represent a statement with the weight of law. Startrek.com is no more and no less "official" than any licensed magazine, novel, comic book, action figure or Christmas tree ornament. It's a cross-promotion, not a declaration of inviolable principle.

Everyone has continued to question the validity of that source with nothing to back up their assertions other than their own understanding of what 'canon' is.

Your own "assertions" are based on nothing more than your own understanding of what Startrek.com is and what "official" is. Why are you so quick to assume that your understandings are unquestionably true while the understandings of actual professionals working in the field are false and deluded?

The people telling you this aren't just writers like me, they're editors like KRAD and Marco. These are people who work with Paramount Licensing on a daily basis. Questions of canon and officialness and the relation of the show to its tie-ins are things they need to understand and deal with as part of their profession. To you, they're just abstract questions for debate. So how arrogant is it for you to assume that you have more insight into the subject than they do??

And this argument about the literal definition of 'canon' is moot because that is not how the owner of the property defines 'canon.' Regardless of the printed materials, they don't even consider TAS canon! What makes TAS different than the other on screen Trek? You can't dispute these facts by conjecture and off-handed comments made by Trek writers.

Again, you're the one making conjectures and guesses. You only have an outsider's knowledge of these matters, yet you're rejecting the insights of people who deal with them far more directly. Does that make any sense?

And again, you've got to stop thinking in terms of "Paramount" and "they" as though the corporation were some reified entity existing independently of any human beings and issuing fiats on its own. Paramount is a business run by individual people, and those people within the corporation who have responsibility for Star Trek have formed varying opinions over the years about what they would regard as canon. Gene Roddenberry decided that he did not want TAS to be considered canon, so that became the policy. Rick Berman did not choose to change it, so it remained. "Paramount" did not decide TAS was not canon. "They" did not decide that. Gene Roddenberry decided that, and his successors did not overrule it.

This isn't life and death sh*t, here. Why does everyone seem so angry?

Because we are just so sick of the wealth of myths and misconceptions and petty disputes that arise over the issue of "canon." We keep trying to explain how simple it is, and how pointless it is to argue over, but people keep dredging up the same old myths and making this simple thing far more complicated and contentious than it has to be. And that's frustrating. Especially when someone who is so clearly burdened by myths and misconceptions is arrogantly assuming he understands the matter better than the professionals.
 
Posted by William Leisner:
Posted by elaithin:
Maybe there should just be a stickied thread for the canon debate. People are going to constantly be brining it up anyways - why not confine it to a single thread?
Because one thread is one thread too many.

Although I suppose a thread dedicated to the canon debate could function akin to a roach motel... :devil:

Wouldn't work. There are always newbies, and one of the defining traits of the newbie is that the newbie doesn't look for existing threads on a subject (or read a faq, or stop to think about whether a given subject may have already been discussed), he or she starts a new one. Hell, there are non-newbs who do that regularly, which is why we often have three or four spoiler threads on the same book, and seven or eight "I sent in my SNW stories! Yay me!" threads at the same time.
 
Posted by CaptainHawk1:
Show me an official Pramount press release that disputes what an affiliate of Paramount says on the property's official website, then I'll be glad to ignore st.com.

Since Richard Arnold supposedly wrote the infamous "What is canon?" memo, on "Star Trek Office" letterhead, on Gene Roddenberry's behalf in 1989, he is a good source of the status of st.com. He has stated in several issues of "Star Trek Communicator" - and elsewhere - over the years that st.com is a ST licensee, just like other ST tie-in licensees, such as Pocket Books and (when they had contracts, DC Comics, Marvel, Malibu Graphics, WildStorm, FASA, Last Unicorn Games, Decipher and Interplay). The word of st.com is not gospel, nor indeed, canon.

Of course, all the information on st.com is correct at time of uploading. All licensed ST tie-in material is vetted twice by Viacom Licensing, at time of proposal and again at pre-publication. Noone at Viacom goes back through old, already-approved and uploaded web pages and corrects them when circumstances change, just as noone orders Pocket Books to rewrite all novels made redundant by events in ENT episodes. So if the website still says that "Mosaic" is canonical, then they are referring to the fact that Jeri Taylor was still the VOY boss at the time "Mosaic" was current. And the "bible" Taylor used for Janeway on VOY was used and expanded for "Mosaic". When Taylor left VOY and started working on "Pathways", she told the writing staff that information about Janeway in "Mosaic", and the rest of the crew in "Pathways", was her gift to them, but they could ignore as they saw fit. And, eventually, they did.

I can't show you a copy of the 1989 memo, but it was retyped verbatim by ST fans and angry ex-Pocket authors on the old Usenet in 1989 and throughout 1990. I saw it there. Several times Richard Arnold also posted comments explaining points in the memo, such as TAS no longer being binding on new scripts and then that Roddenberry had decreed parts of ST V to be "apocryphal".

The thrust of the memo is also quoted, in part, in issue #1, Series II, of DC Comics' post-ST V comic, where it explains that TAS "no longer crosses over" to the TOS movies - and thus Arex and M'Ress would not be appearing in Series II after all (even though a great b/w set of panels featuring M'Ress appeared in comic review journals previewing issue #1).
 
I would like to propose the following vital update to the the FAQ:

Q. Is the "Do I need to read [Book X] to understand Articles of the Federation?" joke over?
A. Yes.
 
The NOT.DEAD. joke is NOT.DEAD.

If the next version of the FAQ doesn't say that the NOT.DEAD. joke is NOT.DEAD. then I won't read the FAQ and neither will any of the fans of the NOT.DEAD. joke. :p

Scott Butler
 
Posted by Scott Butler:
The NOT.DEAD. joke is NOT.DEAD.

If the next version of the FAQ doesn't say that the NOT.DEAD. joke is NOT.DEAD. then I won't read the FAQ and neither will any of the fans of the NOT.DEAD. joke. :p

Scott Butler

I don't think a weak threat about a lame joke will work.
 
Posted by JWolf:
I don't think a weak threat about a lame joke will work.

The threat itself was a joke -- a parody of the fanatics who insist on boycotting any Trek book that acknowledges the events of the ENT finale. There was a smiley after it, you know.
 
Posted by Therin of Andor:
Since Richard Arnold supposedly wrote the infamous "What is canon?" memo, on "Star Trek Office" letterhead, on Gene Roddenberry's behalf in 1989, he is a good source of the status of st.com.

Fair enough, but given that he hasn't been around Paramount since circa 1992 his opinion is a little dated.

He has stated in several issues of "Star Trek Communicator" - and elsewhere - over the years that st.com is a ST licensee, just like other ST tie-in licensees, such as Pocket Books

So the claim here is that StarTrek.com, which is maintained by Paramount Digital Entertainment (or whatever it will be after the coming Viacom split), is in fact just a licensed product (much like an AMT model) that had to get permission from Viacom Consumer Products to make StarTrek.com.

Is there any evidence for this claim? I just find it odd, given that even Paramount.com is maintained by Paramount Digital Entertainment. It seems logical that PDE wouldn't be a licensee in the sense you're going for when making the official websites . . . just the basement division wherein the webmasters are kept much as one would keep a Neanderthal in a cave. ;)

The word of st.com is not gospel, nor indeed, canon.

Oh, of course it isn't canon. That's one of the amusing things about canon policy debates . . . the canon policy is outside the contents of the canon.

Of course, all the information on st.com is correct at time of uploading.

Well, the page detailing the canonicity of Mosaic and Pathways has existed since circa November 2000. It was moved in the great StarTrek.com reorganization of 2003, and still has a July 2003 date. However, sometime between June 2004 and October 2004 the page was updated and rendered more specific via the use of the word "only".

Noone at Viacom goes back through old, already-approved and uploaded web pages and corrects them when circumstances change

Given that the page has been updated and maintained, I see no reason to assume it should be disregarded as old.

So if the website still says that "Mosaic" is canonical, then they are referring to the fact that Jeri Taylor was still the VOY boss at the time "Mosaic" was current. And the "bible" Taylor used for Janeway on VOY was used and expanded for "Mosaic".

Jeri Taylor left Voyager in 1998 with the end of the fourth season. The StarTrek.com page . . . according to my sources . . . first appears in November 2000, or the middle of the final season.

When Taylor left VOY and started working on "Pathways", she told the writing staff that information about Janeway in "Mosaic", and the rest of the crew in "Pathways", was her gift to them, but they could ignore as they saw fit.

Source for that statement?

And, eventually, they did.

Given the internal continuity of Voyager, I wouldn't call that proof of much.

I can't show you a copy of the 1989 memo, but it was retyped verbatim by ST fans and angry ex-Pocket authors on the old Usenet in 1989 and throughout 1990. I saw it there.

I can't find it in Google's Usenet archive. Remember anything more? Key phrases, funny responses?

All I have is the text of the Tim Lynch interview from 1991 (snippets available here), which was the first text I'd found of Richard Arnold ever.

The thrust of the memo is also quoted, in part, in issue #1, Series II, of DC Comics' post-ST V comic, where it explains that TAS "no longer crosses over" to the TOS movies

How much was there? Just wondering if I need to be hunting on eBay.

Sorry if I'm being a pest and peppering you with questions, but if my canon page is incomplete or in error I certainly need to know about it. Thanks!
 
The editors at Pocket repeatedly state that none of the books are canon. Even if Mosaic and Pathways ever were considered canon by anyone on the Trek writing staff who wasn't named Jeri Taylor, they're certainly not considered that way now.

Call me crazy, but I'm tempted to believe the folks at Pocket, given their regular and ongoing contact with the good folks at Paramount, have some grasp of the subject.
 
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