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The star Nero emerges next to...

abaldwin360

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
I broke out my DVD and watched it again yesterday. In the opening the Narada emerged from the black hole right next to what seems to be a red giant just before attacking the Kelvin.

Is this the very star that went super nova some 130+ years later and destroyed Romulus?
 
That would make the best sense, now wouldn't it? But Spock doesn't seem to emerge in the same place, so perhaps there's no requirement for the black hole tunnels to lead to the same spatial coordinates they start from?

Also, the teaser star is close to the Klingons, as there's some walla that appears to say the Klingons are mere tens of thousands of kilometers away, so in the very same star system... Then again, we could be mishearing or misunderstanding that walla, because "75,000 km" as heard is basically the same as "sound collision alert!"...

Plus, plot logic would seem to require that the star that exploded was in Romulan space - preferably the Romulan homestar itself. The Kelvin probably couldn't go there, no matter how badass her captain.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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A great question. Makes sense - the odds of being very close to another star are, ahhh, astronomical. You'd think Nero would might spend a few seconds taking sensor readings rather than what he did end up doing.
 
Although the Hobus star's original location and nova was far enough away from Romulus that the destruction wasn't instantaneous or even RIGHT after the nova occurred. It took a short while for the growing shockwave to reach Romulus. I'd heard some online story or rumor that the star in the movie was one that is supposedly near the Federation-Klingon Neutral Zone in some of the novels over the years, one called Epsilon Tauri. Dunno. Nothing to confirm EITHER theory to be frank.
 
In the movie it says they are so many kilometers from the Klingon Space...
It would make sense that the star they were investigating was Hobus but that would mean they were in Romulan Space.

The story doesn't try to make sense so I find little use in helping it.
 
That would make the best sense, now wouldn't it? But Spock doesn't seem to emerge in the same place, so perhaps there's no requirement for the black hole tunnels to lead to the same spatial coordinates they start from?

Also, the teaser star is close to the Klingons, as there's some walla that appears to say the Klingons are mere tens of thousands of kilometers away, so in the very same star system... Then again, we could be mishearing or misunderstanding that walla, because "75,000 km" as heard is basically the same as "sound collision alert!"...

Plus, plot logic would seem to require that the star that exploded was in Romulan space - preferably the Romulan homestar itself. The Kelvin probably couldn't go there, no matter how badass her captain.
It's never stated in the movie, but the Countdown comic describes the Hobus star (collapse of which produced the wormhole) as being located "deep in Romulan space" (or words to that effect) while the point at which the Narada emerges is stated in dialogue to be on the border of Klingon space (an argument also could be made for Spock's ship later emerging at the same coordinates, given that a Klingon fleet is reported destroyed at about the same time.)

http://trekmovie.com/2009/01/10/idw-releases-5-page-preview-of-countdown-movie-prequel/

http://trekmovie.com/2009/01/19/early-review-star-trek-countdown-1-prequel-comic-to-star-trek-movie/
 
The whole idea of a "Hobus star" sounds silly to the extreme. Only a supernova in the Romulan home system could produce the effects we saw: a slowly moving wave of flaming destruction that carries what looks like lumps of rock with it, and painstakingly slowly tears Romulus to further lumps of rock - and takes the Romulans by surprise. A supernova in some other star system could not produce any of those effects: the destruction wave would either allow Romulus to be evacuated, with years if not centuries to spare, or then be so quickly moving that it could never turn planets into rubble in the manner depicted.

The comic is just plain stupid, and is in gross contradiction with the movie. The Narada isn't some small skiff with Borg stuff grafted on, capable of warping back and forth between star systems in a matter of hours. It's a giant mining platform that in the movie moves perhaps a hundred times slower than the damaged hero ship. Nero doesn't have time to arm his skiff, declare war on the Federation, and then go meet Spock. In the movie, Spock sees the destruction of Romulus, stops the explosion with the black hole bomb, and is immediately confronted by Nero, after which both are sucked to the past; the timescale here is explicitly in minutes, not days.

Better forget the comic, then, and concentrate on what actually happened in the movie. A star exploded, took the Romulans by surprise, and killed them all. A black hole created right next to Romulus transported first Nero and then Spock to the past. Nero emerged next to a big, cool giant of a star, which may or may not have been the star that exploded; Spock emerged somewhere else completely.

Near Nero's point of emergence, Klingons were a concern but Romulans weren't. Could that be the Romulan home star nevertheless? In "Balance of Terror", the Romulan Neutral Zone appeared to surround just the Romulan star system and not much else; perhaps the Kelvin was at the edge of this system, still in UFP territory, and was unconcerned with Romulans because they had been silent behind their RNZ ever since the 2160s? A bit far-fetched but theoretically possible. Not dramatically necessary or defensible, though.

The movie doesn't feature the storyline where Nero and his ship were captured by Klingons for a quarter of a century - it was cut for time, leaving only one flashback image of Nero swinging a pickaxe in what may be a Klingon prison camp but may just as well be one of Nero's mining enterprises, and the odd mention of Nero attacking a Klingon armada next to a Klingon prison planet. But we may choose to believe that Nero was indeed caught by the Klingons, perhaps not for 25 years but for some length of time anyway. In that case, it would make sense for the star to be Klingon, and for the Kelvin to be intruding in Klingon space to study this remarkable phenomenon (or to study this remarkable phenomenon while intruding in Klingon space for other reasons). After George Kirk rams the Narada, the Klingons would come in and take the wounded ship and her crew captive. Nero would swing that pickaxe, but would later manage to escape. And he might return to take revenge on the prison planet and on Klingons when time was ripe - not immediately, so as not to blow his cover while waiting for Spock, but only when he was ready to reveal himself to the world.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If we are going to be talking about the comics, at least we should add the right facts to the mix.
Right or wrong, stupid or smart, in Countdown the Hobus supernova is not just a supernova.

And I quote
" A supernova unlike the galaxy has ever seen.
Just days ago, the star had a violent eruption that obliterated the nearest planet in the system.
The star converted the planet's mass into energy, increasing its own power.
More eruptions have occurred since then and the effects are being felt beyond the Hobus system increasing in intensity"

If you ask me, bs science or not, in Countdown the "supernova" is handled somewhat better than in the movie... in a bs traditional Trek mysterious kind of way.:p
 
The whole idea of a "Hobus star" sounds silly to the extreme. Only a supernova in the Romulan home system could produce the effects we saw: a slowly moving wave of flaming destruction that carries what looks like lumps of rock with it, and painstakingly slowly tears Romulus to further lumps of rock - and takes the Romulans by surprise. A supernova in some other star system could not produce any of those effects: the destruction wave would either allow Romulus to be evacuated, with years if not centuries to spare, or then be so quickly moving that it could never turn planets into rubble in the manner depicted.

The comic is just plain stupid, and is in gross contradiction with the movie. The Narada isn't some small skiff with Borg stuff grafted on, capable of warping back and forth between star systems in a matter of hours. It's a giant mining platform that in the movie moves perhaps a hundred times slower than the damaged hero ship. Nero doesn't have time to arm his skiff, declare war on the Federation, and then go meet Spock. In the movie, Spock sees the destruction of Romulus, stops the explosion with the black hole bomb, and is immediately confronted by Nero, after which both are sucked to the past; the timescale here is explicitly in minutes, not days.

Better forget the comic, then, and concentrate on what actually happened in the movie. A star exploded, took the Romulans by surprise, and killed them all. A black hole created right next to Romulus transported first Nero and then Spock to the past. Nero emerged next to a big, cool giant of a star, which may or may not have been the star that exploded; Spock emerged somewhere else completely.

Near Nero's point of emergence, Klingons were a concern but Romulans weren't. Could that be the Romulan home star nevertheless? In "Balance of Terror", the Romulan Neutral Zone appeared to surround just the Romulan star system and not much else; perhaps the Kelvin was at the edge of this system, still in UFP territory, and was unconcerned with Romulans because they had been silent behind their RNZ ever since the 2160s? A bit far-fetched but theoretically possible. Not dramatically necessary or defensible, though.

The movie doesn't feature the storyline where Nero and his ship were captured by Klingons for a quarter of a century - it was cut for time, leaving only one flashback image of Nero swinging a pickaxe in what may be a Klingon prison camp but may just as well be one of Nero's mining enterprises, and the odd mention of Nero attacking a Klingon armada next to a Klingon prison planet. But we may choose to believe that Nero was indeed caught by the Klingons, perhaps not for 25 years but for some length of time anyway. In that case, it would make sense for the star to be Klingon, and for the Kelvin to be intruding in Klingon space to study this remarkable phenomenon (or to study this remarkable phenomenon while intruding in Klingon space for other reasons). After George Kirk rams the Narada, the Klingons would come in and take the wounded ship and her crew captive. Nero would swing that pickaxe, but would later manage to escape. And he might return to take revenge on the prison planet and on Klingons when time was ripe - not immediately, so as not to blow his cover while waiting for Spock, but only when he was ready to reveal himself to the world.

Timo Saloniemi

And how exactly was sucking the star into a black hole, assuming it was the Romulan star, ever going to save the Romulans? That makes even less sense than Countdown.

You may not like Countdown, and want to ignore it. I thought it was fun and can happily ignore all the little errors in it (it's not like STXI was entirely infallible either). Also remember that Spock Prime wasn't exactly gonna give Kirk every single detail about the future in his mind-meld.

I liked that the implausibility of the Hobus supernova was weaved into the story (the Romulans refuse to believe a nova could be like that either until it's too late). I also liked that we never found out exactly why it was acting so impossibly - not just the readers, but the charcters never found out or didn't know either. Spock was saying something insane was about to happen to the star, a supoernova like none other, but he himself didn't know why.

IMO insane/fantastic things like this are pemitted in Trek. A supernova dozens of light-years across? Fine by me.

As for the OP: I may be wrong, but I think the STXI novel says it was the Hobus star, same as Countdown, that Nero emerged at (which makes you wonder where/when the supernova came out the other end).
 
The galaxy rotates, the spot where Spock and Nero are suck back in time is the same place Nero emerges and later Spock emerges, just the stars have moved.
 
That would make a lot of pseudosense, yes. Either time travel takes into account space travel and "compensates for galactic drift" (so the star in the teaser is the star that exploded), or then it doesn't (so the star cannot be the exploding one); nothing "in between" makes much sense. And since the teaser star was nowhere to be seen when Spock emerged, the second option appears confirmed.

However, stars generally only move a few dozen kilometers per second, their drift inside the galaxy and the galactic rotation combined. Let's say the exploding star moves a hundred klicks per second. Nero time travels for five or six billion seconds. That's only five hundred billion kilometers, or a few percents of a lightyear. One wouldn't get from one star to another with that sort of drift yet.

Perhaps the galaxy moves as well, while the time tunnel holds still in relation to this movement?

I liked that the implausibility of the Hobus supernova was weaved into the story (the Romulans refuse to believe a nova could be like that either until it's too late). I also liked that we never found out exactly why it was acting so impossibly - not just the readers, but the charcters never found out or didn't know either.

Actually, I like that concept a lot. I just don't like the comic, which either wasn't thought out as well as the movie, or embarrassingly reveals the lack of thinking in both...

A "hypernova" suffers from the problem that Romulans don't evacuate. If destruction was coming from lightyears away, in form of a wavefront that moved as slowly as shown in the flashback, then "surprise" and "disbelief" cannot be cited as reasons for the failure to evacuate - there'd have been plenty of time to get over surprise and start believing. But that problem goes away if we disregard the flashback visuals and assume that the hypernova did have some sort of a FTL wavefront, or that something else interesting was taking place off camera or differently from what the camera showed.

And the hypernova explains why Spock would worry about stopping the explosion after Romulus was already gone. With a regular supernova, he wouldn't have to do that.

OTOH, turning a star into a black hole is a valid way to save the star system in question. A planet orbiting that star can endure having the star turned into a black hole; at the very least, it gives the surviving inhabitants a few centuries to evacuate. It cannot endure having the star going kaboom, because that means instant death for all surface dwellers, and/or englobement inside the expanded star for the immediate future, preventing evacuation of possible survivors deep in the mantle (a survival technique unknown to our usual Trek suspects, to be sure).

Perhaps Spock wanted to save the outer fringes of the star system from the explosion of the central star, even after the inner planets Romulus and Remus were gone?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Hmmm. Easy to presume the Romulans would have noticed THEIR star about to go nova (or supernova) and would do something about it, like evacuate. So the Hobus supernova-that-is-different-that-threatens-Romulus could in fact be some type of new thing... perhaps a deliberately orchestrated attack of some kind. We've seen them blow up suns before, and threaten to blow them up... perhaps a variant specifically aimed at the Romulans and specifically with subspace effects. Spock says it "threatened the Galaxy"... something the Dominion might be interested in doing given their distance? Spock figures this out but the Romulans don't beleive him.

Notice he can't stop the explosion, he can just contain it.

(not canon but interesting. might be a premise for next movie - discover WHY the Hobus star exploded and meet the bad guys who can create supernovae?)

In any event, Nero blaming Spock for failing to act quickly enough is off the wall, unless he believes that Spock is the one who blew up the Hobus star.
 
Spock didn't stop the explosion - but he was too late to do so anyway. We cannot know if he could have stopped it had he been there sooner.

And a star that is "about to explode" is just the sort of threat that Romulans would disregard, if they cannot be completely certain that this future thing really is going to happen, and is going to happen soon enough to be of significance. Spock knew that time was of essence - why else would he have been so concerned about having the fastest ship available? But he appeared to be late from the show nevertheless, as he wanted to stop the destruction of Romulus, yet this "unthinkable" thing still happened when he was en route. If it was a matter of timing, and even the famed Spock got the timing wrong, then obviously Romulans would have had differing ideas on the timing as well. Such as, "It won't happen in a thousand years yet" as opposed to "I'm not quite sure if it will happen in three hours or four". That's astrophysics for you...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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