the Sith Rule of Two Is Stupid

[sonak]

So I've read off and on SW EU stuff and I've read the Darth Bane trilogy stuff and I know the Sith rule of two is established in the prequels in the first place.

But it's stupid for the following reasons:


-they've decided to voluntarily keep themselves outnumbered by thousands or tens of thousands to two, great strategy
-suppose both master and apprentice are on a flight together somewhere and there's a technical malfunction and an explosion-poof! all the Sith knowledge and training is gone.
-the relationship between master and apprentice is supposed to be deliberately unstable, based on treachery.... uh, right, who voluntarily decides to teach to or learn from someone who is open about their intentions to betray them? What would be the point?

I know,it's supposed to be that this keeps them hidden and they rely on cunning, behind-the-scenes manipulation, not open confrontation and war.


But really... Two? TWO?

What society wants to limit their membership to a two-person rivalry?

I've always thought the whole Sith infighting thing to be stupid- organizations seek to encourage and promote loyalty and cohesion, not backstabbing, because you can't have a stable organization that way.


Anyway, those are my observations which are probably wrong and overlooking key points that would ruin my arguments. Like I said, I only read EU stuff off and on, but even just from the PT this seemed like a stupid rule.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The point isn't that it's deliberately unstable, but it is inevitably unstable. The Dark Side tempts with power, so the apprentice inevitably feels he's more powerful than the master (in the movies, Darth Vader twice offers to kill Palpatine and have him replaced). With only two, they can keep an eye on each other.

So, yes, it does limit their numbers, but that clearly didn't matter that much. They fight in the shadows and never have two fighting at once. The amount of Sith lords killed to Jedi killed is very minuscule.

 

[6079SmithW]

Well, your viewing this as a normal, rational person instead of as a Sith Lord. The reason why Bane dismissed the organization that promoted loyalty and cohesion was because it was too soft and mushy, too kind to be truly darkside. It had too much comraderie and the rule of two embraces pure individualism.

As for the whole mutual betrayal thing, they both are confident that they can betray the other one first, especially from the apprentice's point of view. Also, Sith really get off on the whole betrayal thing, its kind their thing.

Why reduce it to two when there are 1000s of jedi? Because this allows all the power of the darkside to be concentrated into one person, the master. As we clearly see from the prequels, just one true master of the darkside, the true dark lord of the sith, can bring down the entire jedi order.

Hoped that helps a bit.

 

[Admiral_Young]

The betrayal thing is also a sign of a Sith's power. When they feel they have obtained enough personal power they can take on their master. If they kill the master then they become the new master and need to find an apprentice.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Two or Twos?

Could it mean that they travel in sets of two, but there are hundreds or thousands of sets of two?

or it could be like Buffy.

The entire weight of the dark side of the force falls upon the sith lord and hir apprentice, but there are others training to be Sith all the time who can't tap into the Dark Side until the current Sith Lords are dead. It would be like those episodes of coplawyerdoctor where some relative/ill person is knocking off people on the transplant list above themself/their relative, Jedi only kill sith so that they can become Sith like the immortals after the prize in Highlander.

If you're not Sith, you're jedi. Or Jedi wannabe. Either way you have the power to hunt down those trying to out Sith you years before you're able to tap into any real Sith power.

Maybe "the two" are like chains? that every apprentice is already a master with their own apprentice who is already a master with an apprentice in so that you can't be a Sith of any repute without being a fully qualified Jedi already.

Maybe the knowledge of the Sith is not really trusted to the sith, but it's like the green lantern corps. Found and trained. drafted and forced into a religion or else by some sort of AI or monster immortal that sees the conflict as some sort of cosmic balance rather than good or evil being any better than the other.

That being said, who says the jedi are good? They believe in chaos. They ignore suffering passionlessly and they obey power without checking if it is good or evil.

The Sith however become power.

Maybe the jedi is supposed to be 2 as well.

A mass of executions across the cosmos would bring balance to the force.

The force was being raped into an early grave by over use from so many assholes who never should have been trained. It's no respect for the environment.

The Jedi are not mushy. They are warrior priests who travel the galaxy murdering lgions and civilizations at the behest of the old republic and then the Empire. Slaves or pets of the real power: the politicians.

What choice did palatine really have but to turn the current masters of the universe into dogs before they first put a bit in his mouth and used him to some insidious end.

What did Palpatine need with that Fleet? And those deathstars?

the Emperor made it safe for normal people to walk the streets without being butered then raped by tusken raiders or slaved by the Hutt. He held the borders and probably exteneded them.

Grand Moff Tarkin (not a sith) was the cunt blowing up planets, and it's unlikely his personality or tactics had changed since he worked for Zod in the old republic.it might have taking a few dozen Star Destroyers but I doubt that was the first planet he had raised (though certainly not ever so quickly nor completely.).

What did the Empire ever do that was so bad except hunt down political dissidents and terrorists? You do understand how blowing up the deathstar was a bout a billion times more traumatising to the average Imperial Citizen than 911 is to a modern day American? Millions of lives lost and trillions of credits taxed from the citizenship flushed down the drain creating probably some sort of new depression or recession.

Thanks Luke.

Luke wanted to join up with the Empire in the beginning.

All governments are bastards and this one wasn't as bad as most others if you google a few words like atrocity or genocide or ethnic cleansing.

 

[jep316]

Well officially there's 2 a Master and a Apprentice but they are allowed to have a group of followers who in a way act like the Jedi's and one of those followers is clearly in line to become the next Apprentice after the current one "replaces" the Master (after they climb and backstab their way to the top of course)...


Now take the current Clone Wars cartoon had things worked out differently General Grievous would have fought Asajj Ventress to become Count Dooku official Apprentice after he killed and took the Sith Lord title from Palpatine.

Apparently that's how it works no one but the official Apprentice can take the Sith Lord title and no one but the Sith Lord can choose the official Apprentice so the Lord choices the person who will try to betray him/her and then tries to find someone to betray the Apprentice and the Apprentice tries to find someone to become his Apprentice to help him/her over throw the Lord and that usually ends up being the same person and I'm going mad trying make sense out any of this God please help me!!! I CANT STOP TYPING ARRAGH!!!!!!!

Oh that's better now where was I?

 

[Dream]

It's not any more stupid than a Starfleet captain going on away missions and beaming down to a planet.

 

[Gaith]

@The OP: Yes, yes it is.

 

[EJA]

Well, the whole stab-you-in-the-back-to-rise-in-power thing is pretty much a constant in the Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And the Klingon Empire in the regular Star Trek Universe.

The prime minister where I live was locked in a toilet cubical back in 1990 so that his deputy could address the house on an affair the big cheese was having with a married woman and thus steal the country.

Good times.

 

[JediKnightButler]

Well, the Rule of Two DID ultimately kept the Sith Order *alive* for a millenia since the Jedi thought they were extinct (and subsequently became complacent) and allowed Palpatine/Sidious to eliminate the Jedi Order and establish a 20 year Sith-led Empire over the galaxy though I suppose after the elimination of Palpatine and his official apprentice (at the same time), one could make the argument that the "rule of two" endures only as long as the Sith are able to keep the dynamic going. Following Palpatine's (final) death, the remaining Sith followers seemed to decide to abandon the "rule of two" and form a new larger order with which to eventually take on Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order. Lumiya, Vergere (to the extent that he was a Sith), and Jacen Solo/Caedus seemed to maintain the previous "rule of two" with only Lumiya having any knowledge of the "One Sith" order on Korriban.

 

[Jono]

Even if both Sith died in the Rule of Two order it would just wipe out the Sith for a while. Exar Kun is a pretty decent case for why the Sith can never be destroyed. All it takes is a Jedi to go to the Dark Side and thanks to the magic of the Force even dead Sith can still hang around. All the fallen Jedi would need is to find a holocron or one of the many Sith ghosts that like to haunt dark places and objects and they can restart the Sith Order.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Who knew that Palpatine was Sith?

It's like in V, the new crappy one, you have these dicks thinking that they are the Resistance, it's like woo hoo, we are the last best hope for humanity, and then a season and a half later, like in lost when they discovered the other passengers from the tail section, these bad asses show up with coordinated strikes all over the world exploding the shit out of the enemy...

There has to be so many force users out there thinking, fuck it the Sith have been extinct for thousands of years, I think it's about time I brung it back. So there are thousands of grassroot dill holes trying to start up the old religion to varying degrees of success before palpatine smashes them for their impudence even if it takes him 10 years to notice their emergence.

The Jedi were hunted to extinction in living memory of most every one on the street in the days of new Hope. By Storm troopers who are standing on every street corner. I mean if the nazi's were still in power, no one would be mentioning the Jews ever because there would be another sort of storm trooper on every corner, which is why Han Solo, a guy who was at least ten years older than Luke Skywalker thought that the Jedi were just sham witch doctors with no real power.

So when it comes down in to as how you're going to express these magic super powers that just spark up now and then, maybe the Stormtroopers don't hunt and kill the Sith which makes the Sith a valid life choice compared to being hunted by Storm Troopers?

 

[sonak]

Well, the Rule of Two DID ultimately kept the Sith Order *alive* for a millenia since the Jedi thought they were extinct (and subsequently became complacent) and allowed Palpatine/Sidious to eliminate the Jedi Order and establish a 20 year Sith-led Empire over the galaxy though I suppose after the elimination of Palpatine and his official apprentice (at the same time), one could make the argument that the "rule of two" endures only as long as the Sith are able to keep the dynamic going. Following Palpatine's (final) death, the remaining Sith followers seemed to decide to abandon the "rule of two" and form a new larger order with which to eventually take on Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order. Lumiya, Vergere (to the extent that he was a Sith), and Jacen Solo/Caedus seemed to maintain the previous "rule of two" with only Lumiya having any knowledge of the "One Sith" order on Korriban.

Well true it ultimately worked for Palpatine, although the Jedi had to be portrayed as incompetent morons in order for the takeover attempt to work.


And even he is constantly betraying or in danger of betrayed by his apprentices. He betrays Dooku and tries to get Luke to kill Vader but is instead killed by Vader himself.

I understand there's supposed to be some in-universe explanation about how the dark side power is a limited resource or something so is best conserved in a few Sith, but why does this not apply to the Light Side and the Jedi?


And if ambition is the ultimate motivation of Sith Lords why would they be content to hide for A THOUSAND YEARS FOR SOME SITH LORD IN THE DISTANT FUTURE TO TAKE OVER?

how does that help the ones who've been dead for hundreds of years? Shouldn't each Sith be theoretically trying to take over by themselves?


And yeah, the whole "advancement by infighting" thing has been shown by the Klingon Empire and the mirror universe empire, but I've never seen it as a very workable idea.


organizations with a common goal or ideology would seek to promote loyalty to that cause, not be constantly racked by internal rivalries.


From what I've read of Sith/Jedi history, don't the Sith defeat themselves through their internal rivalries more than the Jedi actually do?

 

[Admiral_Young]

The Sith Lord's since Darth Bane were working in secret to control the galaxy...at least on a theoretical basis. There is a lot of work that goes into controlling the various factions and corporations in a big galaxy. You need to aqiure contacts and network, etc. The previous Sith in the Rule of Two ultimately laid the ground work for Palpaltine to unleash his plan. He was able to take advantage of the political situation in the galaxy and implement his plans. I'd say the Rule of Two works pretty well.

 

[Tom]

The force was in 'balance' between ROTS and ROTJ, if you think about it. There were 2 on each side that were force 'aware' , Vader & Palps and Yoda & Obi Wan. Luke became force aware then Obi Wan died leaving two then, Yoda dies but Leia learns that she is Luke's sister and probably has the force also. When Vader and Palps die the force is left uneven with just Luke and Leia on the light side..unless one of then were to turn bad or previously unknowns villains become sith.

 

[Silvercrest]

That has been argued many times before and it doesn't wash. First, that situation was only true for just over one generation. If that "balance" is what the prophecy was supposed to be predicting, then the prophecy is meaningless in the long run.

Second, just because we were only shown two Jedi at a time doesn't mean there were no others. All it would take was one Jedi who survived the purge, hiding out under a rock someplace like Yoda did, and there goes your balance.

Third, if you want to count Leia as a potential Force-user, fine, but you can't just count her after it's revealed that she's Luke's sister. She always had the potential. Which again throws off the "balance" from the beginning. Or if you're only counting those who are "aware" of the Force (but untrained), what does that mean?

 

[Checkmate]

You'd almost think Lucas was a hack who just threw that stuff in because he thought it sounded cool.




Nah.

 

[Sephiroth]

let's look at Palpatine, he eliminates a corrupt and bloated political body that has been rendered ineffective (save for the massive terror weapon that is the Jedi order) which has allowed for the spreading of organized crime, which he cleans up for the most part (save for places like Tattooine where it still exists, but is mostly impotent) then the rebels and Luke come in to wipe out Palpatine and his more cenrtalized and open form of corruption (and IT'S terror weapon, namely the Death Star) and go on to build a more stable form of government that will in time become too bloated and corrupt to be effective

 

[exodus]

Can there be more than one Sith Lord at a time?

Darth Sidious had Count Dooku but Dooku has Assajj Ventress.
Isn't that a loop hole in the only two?