It looks like you posted while I was writing my post to Emilia--so the cutesy part was aimed at her, not you.
Fair enough. Consider my reaction to that comment retracted.
We did see a variety of governments in ENT (two parliamentary systems and one autocratic system)--but at that time, all of them were wholly independent entities and the Federation did not exist until the very end when the Coalition of Planets came into force, and that was more analogous to NATO than to the Federation.
Well, again, I don't know ENT that well. Were any of them species that we know become full members later on in the Trek timeline? If so, without evidence to the contrary, it is safe to assume that they were able to keep those alternate forms of government.
I am quite aware of the specifics of those episodes, thank you very much,
Then why did you characterize them inaccurately in your other post?
and they do in fact demonstrate that a government that isn't considered up to Federation standards will not be permitted to join.
What I said was that simplifying it down to "unsuitable government or politics" is disingenuous, because it ignores the very specific, very identifiable
reasons for their rejection which were clearly spelled out in the episodes. In "The Hunted", it was more about a human rights violation (for lack of a better phrase when dealing with aliens) than "unsuitable government", anyway. "Attached" is about their government, but in any case, my point was that putting it in such simple, vague terms seems to leave room for "interpretation" as to WHY these races were considered unsuitable, when in fact we know
exactly why from watching the eps. And furthermore, they prove nothing whatsoever about Federation requirements for secular government.
Do "The Hunted" and "Attached" show that the Federation has standards which must be met if a culture wishes to join? Yes. Do those episodes leave us with ambiguous, unsure semi-evidence as to exactly what the problems were in those two cases, allowing room for interpretation and speculation? No.
As far as the d'jarra system, I don't like it either--however, it does show that the Federation does not accept religion as a justification for laws that it finds unacceptable.
No it doesn't. It shows that the Federation does not accept those laws,
period. It's not about religion, it's about the law itself. They wouldn't accept ANY justification for a law or policy that was considered unacceptable in the Federation.
Your interpretation isn't logical. It basically goes like this:
A) Bajor petitions for membership. Fed is ok with it, begins prepping them to become members.
B) Akorem returns and becomes the Emissary for a bit; he returns Bajor to the d'jarra system. Fed says hey, caste-based discrimination isn't ok, if you do this, your membership application will be denied.
C) What's the reason for the Bajorans even having had a caste system in the first place? Their religion.
D) Ergo, the Federation is anti-religion, and/or requires a non-secular government to join.
You see what I'm getting at? That's not a logical chain, at all. By that logic:
A) The MacGuffians petition for membership. Fed is ok with it, begins prepping them to become members.
B) A year into the process, the MacGuffians adopt a caste system. Fed says hey, caste-based discrimination isn't ok, if you do this, your membership application will be denied.
C) What's the reason for the MacGuffians adopting a caste system in the first place? They conducted an extensive, planet-wide, scientific study, and determined that a caste-based society was much more efficient.
D) Ergo, the Federation is anti-science, and/or requires a government that is not influenced by the scientific community to join.
There is no telling where that would stop. Let's take some examples, though, that are not agreed on by everyone in our society. What happens if the Federation decides that euthanasia and abortion must be legalized, and the death penalty abolished, and these changes violate Bajoran values? (The first two are simply examples; the final is something we have canon proof is legal on Bajor.) If Bajor is to keep its freedom to have its culture without imposition by others, there is zero guarantee they would be able to keep doing that in the Federation.
For the third (fourth? I don't even know) time: YES THERE IS. THE GUARANTEE IS THE TV SHOW ITSELF. Bajor's application was ACCEPTED. The process was DONE. "Rapture" proves beyond any doubt that the Federation was perfectly ok with
everything about Bajoran culture and government, save for the d'jarras. Everything in your little slippery slope argument here (which I find ridiculous by the way, but I'm not going to write up a huge paragraph on it because it's irrelevant, and this post is already huge anyway) is nothing more than your personal speculation, speculation which happens to be void due to the fact that the Federation approved Bajor's application.
You are completely missing the point of my bringing up the Cairn.
I didn't
miss the point, I blew a huge hole in it.
Sign language may not have been in common use, but the fact stands that the Federation was requiring the Cairn to get surgery
Prove it. Prove it was a requirement provided by the Feds, and not an idea put forth by the Cairn themselves.
(and I would refer you to Lwaxana's words on the matter where she says to them that they must do this).
She says no such thing.
To alter themselves physically to make it easier on other species.
Completely inaccurate. It's not "for the benefit of others." It's so ANY COMMUNICATION AT ALL is possible. We know that they have no concept of language, we know that communicating telepathically even with Betazoids is difficult and required both the Cairn representatives and Lwaxana to work at it, and we know that they cannot even read the minds of non-telepaths.
We also have no evidence that the majority of ordinary Cairn citizens will be "required" in any way to learn language. Perhaps only ambassadors, government officials, and potential Federation representatives (should they join) will need to do so.
The Cairn don't seem bothered by it. Given the medical technology in Star Trek, having a fully functional "vocalizer" implanted was probably a simple, painless procedure that took all of two and a half minutes.
and completely unnecessary when the most obvious solution would be to modify the universal translator technology (and I will grant you based on "Loud as a Whisper" that modification would obviously be required) to handle visual as well as spoken languages. Why go in and alter another culture so fundamentally instead?
Why assume that "adapting the universal translator to translate sign language" is automatically possible? On what basis do you assume that it is?
Implanting vocal cords doesn't "alter their culture." That's a physical change that an individual undergoes; their culture is not in any way affected by the simple existence of vocal cords.
What DOES alter their culture is learning language.
Which they would have to do anyway to understand sign language. Sign language is BASED on written language. Learning that a specific hand gesture means "sadness" will do you no good if you do not also understand what the word "sadness" means. The Cairn had no knowledge of even the
concept of language before meeting the Federation. To learn sign language would require them to learn about LANGUAGE. The impact on their culture is the same either way.
And again, there is no proof whatsoever that the Cairn were "forced" or even "pressured" to do anything at all. They wanted to join the Federation. That at least some members of their society be able to communicate with Federation leaders in order for them to join is perfectly reasonable, and does not reflect badly in any way on the Federation. Whose idea was it to use implanted vocal cords and have them study language? We can't know that for sure, but I stand by my assertion that the ep support my interpretation. Look at the reception scene at the beginning. Look at all of the conversations involving Maques (prior to Lwaxana collapsing, anyway). Everyone is all smiles. The atmosphere is relaxed and positive. Maques and Hedril seem pleased - perhaps even proud - of the progress they have made with language. And Lwaxana says that "they realized that they'll want to communicate verbally if they join the Federation." This all implies that it was their idea, or at the very least, that they were completely on board with the notion once the Federation proposed it. No one is pressuring anyone.
As to all of the above, I'm done. I've backed up my arguments more than adequately across these two posts, and don't feel the need to continue this unless entirely new points are brought up.
I am quite aware of the specifics of those episodes, thank you very much, and they do in fact demonstrate that a government that isn't considered up to Federation standards will not be permitted to join.
Whatever those standards may be, you're obfuscating the point.
Bajor's government is not secular - the Council of Vedeks and the Kai in particular play a role in Bajoran government.
Bajor was approved to join the Federation.
Ergo, the Federation doesn't require its membership to have a secular form of government.
Thank you for summing up in a few words what I seem to require paragraphs of text to get across. Brevity is not my strong point.
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