The Savage Curtain - Like it, love it or hate it?

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Abraham Lincoln: lived 460 years before the episode.
Genghis Khan: lived 1,100 years before the episode.
Surak: lived 1,800-some years before the episode.
Colonel Green: lived 200 years before the episode.

So there's no rhyme or reason as far as time periods go. Far all we know, both Kahless and Zora could have been contemporary to the 23rd century.

Kahless would at least have to be dead, though, to be known as "the Unforgettable." (Unless he was just so in-your-face all the time that nobody could forget him while he was alive.)

 

[Dukhat]

Kahless would at least have to be dead, though, to be known as "the Unforgettable." (Unless he was just so in-your-face all the time that nobody could forget him while he was alive.)

LOL. Or he could have given that honorific to himself, like how Hitler came up with the "Fuhrer."

 

[johnnybear]

Abraham Lincoln: lived 460 years before the episode.
Genghis Khan: lived 1,100 years before the episode.
Surak: lived 1,800-some years before the episode.
Colonel Green: lived 200 years before the episode.

So there's no rhyme or reason as far as time periods go. Far all we know, both Kahless and Zora could have been contemporary to the 23rd century.

No, the way that Yarnek is speaking of the characters that represent evil is that they 'were' famous historical entities rather than they are still representing their individual worlds and empires!
JB

 

[Dukhat]

No, the way that Yarnek is speaking of the characters that represent evil is that they 'were' famous historical entities rather than they are still representing their individual worlds and empires!
JB

All that means is that Kahless was no longer alive before the episode. Still doesn’t answer when he did his bad deeds.

 

[Kor]

I found this episode to be fun, if clearly flawed, and not bad for season 3. However I've seen it on a lot of "Worst Trek Episodes Ever" lists. What's your stance on this episode?

I don't think very highly of this episode. However, it did add Surak and Kahless to the Trek mythos.

Edit: Oops, this is exactly what I posted back when this thread was new.

Kor

 

[FormerLurker]

Some people can't read their own writing.

 

[Maurice]

Dunno if it was shared here before, but on Facebook last month Doug Drexler shared a photo of the filming model of the planet Excalabia.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Dunno if it was shared here before, but on Facebook last month Doug Drexler shared a photo of the filming model of the planet Excalabia.

"An area of approximately 24 square inches. It measures completely Earthlike."

 

[Marsden]

LOL. Or he could have given that honorific to himself, like how Hitler came up with the "Fuhrer."

I believe Kahless was a big fan of Nat King Cole.

 

[MAGolding]

Abraham Lincoln: lived 460 years before the episode.
Genghis Khan: lived 1,100 years before the episode.
Surak: lived 1,800-some years before the episode.
Colonel Green: lived 200 years before the episode.

So there's no rhyme or reason as far as time periods go. Far all we know, both Kahless and Zora could have been contemporary to the 23rd century.

You seem to be assuming that the official chronology is correct, despite the fact that it often contradicts the evidence of the episodes.

For Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) 460 years after his lifetime would be sometime between 2269 and 2325. I presume you are accepting the official date of 2269 for "The Savage Curtain".

When they discuss Kirk and Spock beaming down to the planet:

SCOTT: Lincoln died three centuries ago on a planet hundreds of light years away.
SPOCK: More that direction, Engineer.

So Spock was such a nitpicker that he corrected Scott about the direction to Earth, even though that direction would be constantly changing as the Enterprise orbited Excalpia.

So Scott's "three centuries" must have been accurate enough for Spock to accept as reasonably accurate by Human standards and accurate enough not to be corrected.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 300.00 to 300.99 years later, the date would be sometime in 2165 to 2166.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 275.00 to 325.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2140 to 2190.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 266.67 to 333.33 years later, the date would be sometime in 2131.61 to 2198.61

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 250.00 to 350.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2115 to 2215.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 225.00 to 375.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2090 to 2240.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 200.00 to 400.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2065 to 2265.

But there would be no possible way for Spock to accept Scott's "three centuries" if the actual time span was over 400 years and if "The Savage Curtain" was after 2265.

In the sickbay in "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

MITCHELL: My love has wings. Slender, feathered things with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip. The Nightingale Woman, written by Phineas Tarbolde on the Canopius planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one, Doctor.
DEHNER: Why?
MITCHELL: That's one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries. How do you feel, Doctor?

So Mitchell said that Tarbolde wrote "Nightingale Woman" in the year 1996 in the calendar Mitchell was using. He also said that year 1996 was in "The past couple of centuries". Thus the date of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" must be sometime between 1996 and 2196 (and probably between 2096 and 2196) in the calendar Mitchell was using.

Thus the available evidence does not indicate that the official chronology is correct to put TOS in AD 2265 to 2269.

 

[Dukhat]

You seem to be assuming that the official chronology is correct, despite the fact that it often contradicts the evidence of the episodes.

For Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) 460 years after his lifetime would be sometime between 2269 and 2325. I presume you are accepting the official date of 2269 for "The Savage Curtain".

When they discuss Kirk and Spock beaming down to the planet:



So Spock was such a nitpicker that he corrected Scott about the direction to Earth, even though that direction would be constantly changing as the Enterprise orbited Excalpia.

So Scott's "three centuries" must have been accurate enough for Spock to accept as reasonably accurate by Human standards and accurate enough not to be corrected.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 300.00 to 300.99 years later, the date would be sometime in 2165 to 2166.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 275.00 to 325.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2140 to 2190.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 266.67 to 333.33 years later, the date would be sometime in 2131.61 to 2198.61

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 250.00 to 350.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2115 to 2215.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 225.00 to 375.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2090 to 2240.

If Spock would accept "three centuries" if it was 200.00 to 400.00 years later, the date would be sometime in 2065 to 2265.

But there would be no possible way for Spock to accept Scott's "three centuries" if the actual time span was over 400 years and if "The Savage Curtain" was after 2265.

In the sickbay in "Where No Man Has Gone Before":



So Mitchell said that Tarbolde wrote "Nightingale Woman" in the year 1996 in the calendar Mitchell was using. He also said that year 1996 was in "The past couple of centuries". Thus the date of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" must be sometime between 1996 and 2196 (and probably between 2096 and 2196) in the calendar Mitchell was using.

Thus the available evidence does not indicate that the official chronology is correct to put TOS in AD 2265 to 2269.

The chronology wasn’t the point. The point was that there were wildly varying dates for the time periods those historical figures came from.

 

[johnnybear]

Colonel Fellini was going to lock Kirk up for two hundred years and he said that'll be about right in Tomorrow is Yesterday! So that would put Trek's timeline in and about 2168-2180 surely?
JB

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Spock thinks Scotty will realize his chronological error in due time using his own mind. He may be able to not determine what direction Earth is from where he's standing without a computer. The fact that Spock can...superVulcancomputerbrain strikes again!

 

[johnnybear]

Well yes, we now know that the original series was set about three hundred years from the original air dates! So there would have to have been a reason why Spock didn't correct any of the crews mistakes in dating events in the past and correlating them to the exact year that they were living in at the time! A bit like the way he would correct Kirk, McCoy,Scotty or Chekov over a meaningless error in the distance between bodies in space by a few points or such!
JB

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Colonel Fellini was going to lock Kirk up for two hundred years and he said that'll be about right in Tomorrow is Yesterday! So that would put Trek's timeline in and about 2168-2180 surely?
JB

You are correct that all time references in the original series indicate the setting is either the late 22nd or the very early 23rd century. The timeline imposed later is pure retcon that will never quite square the circle with those episodes.

 

[Discofan]

You are correct that all time references in the original series indicate the setting is either the late 22nd or the very early 23rd century. The timeline imposed later is pure retcon that will never quite square the circle with those episodes.

If we go by the original timeline we already are in a parallel universe because the genetic wars never happened here.

 

[johnnybear]

If we go by the original timeline we already are in a parallel universe because the genetic wars never happened here.

Thank the stars! Not that they made much sense anyway!
JB

 

[Marsden]

I would add a lot more singing and dancing.

Those hippies could be the House Band.

If that was the case, Lincoln wouldn't have had to ask where the musicians are.

 

[Phaser Two]

I believe Kahless was a big fan of Nat King Cole.

And Rich Little and Frank Caliendo! "Now can you cry like John Madden?"

 

[Lord Garth]

Abraham Lincoln is my favorite President. Period. And it's the episode that introduced Kahless and Surak.

So it brings a lot to the table. It may not be the best but I like it.