The Saint...

[Warped9]

I've just started reading a book published quite a few years ago, The Saint: A Complete History in Print, Radio, Film and Television by Burl Barer.

So far I've read only the first thirty pages to the end of the first section as well as skipping ahead to look at the section dealing with the Saint's various automotive rides over the years. Wow, it wash't until reading that part which finally confirmed to me that the Furillac and Hirondel referred to in the early books were entirely figments of Leslie Charteris' imagination.

Anyway reading this has somewhat reawakened my long fascination with The Saint.

My earliest recollections of The Saint are of episodes from the 1960's Roger Moore series. But since those are from before I was ten I have dim memories of those occasionally seen episodes. I was reminded more strongly of them when Roger Moore began playing Bond in the 1970s. It always struck me that Moore's portrayal of 007 seemed more like Simon Templar than the character of Fleming's original books.

My real fascination with The Saint began sometime in the late '70s and early '80s when I discovered The Saint books. After reading one borrowed from the college library I began a quest to read as many as I could find. I also desperately wanted to revisit the 1960's television series, but I rarely saw any of the episodes rerun in my area. I did manage to catch some of the Ian Ogilvy Return Of The Saint series from that period, but while it was somewhat entertaining it just didn't resonate like the books. And although my memories of the 1960's series was dim I then (and still do) always envisioned Roger Moore as Simon Templar when reading the books.

My fascination cooled somewhat as the years passed and I was distracted by other things, but I've never lost my interest in the character. Over the past ten years or so I managed to catch quite a few of the 1940's Saint films starring Louis Hayward, George Sanders and others as Simon Templar. Some were mediocre and some were enjoyable enough. Sanders in particular seemed to have caught something of the character as portrayed in the 1930's books and stories. Some of those films do catch something of the flavour of the original stories. Of course my perception is also coloured by seeing these films decades after they were made and my interpretation of the original printed stories and my image of Roger Moore as the Saint.

I was initially intrigued and then extremely disappointed with Val Kilmer's turn as The Saint. The whole exercise mostly fell flat. About the only thing carried over from the books was Templar's proficiency with disguises.

Even so I'd love to see the Saint return in a well done film although I'm challenged to imagine who could play him. I also wouldn't mind seeing one of the original novels adapted and including some of the other characters such as Patricia Holm and Inspector Teal. I'd be happy with a contemporary setting although I think it could be quite interesting in a period setting of the 1930s. I was reminded of this while I was watching the recent The King's Speech. Much earlier the idea occurred to me when I watched a little known Tom Selleck film called Lassiter.

Presently I'm hoping to find the original B&W episodes of the Roger Moore series on dvd at a reasonable price, which they currently don't appear to be. I've got quite a few of the original books in my collection and I'm getting the urge to revisit them again.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I've only seen bits and bobs of the Roger Moore series. I've actually seen more of the Ian Ogilvie show, which I enjoyed as a small boy, but my dad reckoned Ogilvie was completely unconvincing.

I saw and enjoyed quite a few of the old black and white movie versions. As you probably know, George Sanders played the role for a while, then, due to copyright issues, played The Falcon, who was The Saint in all but name (Sanders' brother Tom later replaced him in this role). Again, I've seen more of these than of the Moore version.

There was a fairly boring and forgettable version starring Simon Dutton in the late 1980s. As I recall, only his first name made Mr Dutton suitable for the role. Yawn.

There was then a long period while producer Robert Evans tried to get his version off the ground. Virtually every UK or Irish actor was connected with the role - Pierce Brosnan (in his hiatus between losing out for The Living Daylights and winning Goldfinger), Ralph Fiennes, Hugh Grant (a fairly obvious Moore replacement), Liam Neeson, etc. as well as Mel Gibson (wasn't Charteris an Aussie too?).

There was then talk of Moore returning as an aged Templar and even talk of Moore's son in the lead role! Finally, after ridiculous rumours of Arnie as Templar, we got saddled with Val Kilmer, who seemed to be trying to remake the previous year's Mission Impossible, but with his Jim Morrison in the lead. The climax was Simon, er, switching on a lightbulb!!!!! Not quite James Cameron in the spectacle stakes. Still, Elizabeth Shue was lovely as the female lead and at least Templar drove a rather snazzy Volvo. Oh, and Rog did the requisite voice-only cameo.

There was talk a few years ago of a tv version, directed by John McTiernan (IIRC) with James Purefoy in the lead (nice choice) but that's come to nowt.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a further attempt at a remake or reboot. I suppose the problem is the character isn't really all that well known any more and many of those who do know him think of him as a poor man's James Bond (even though he predates him and is nothing like 007).

As for casting - I'd throw the likes of Ioan Gruffyd, Hugh Jackman, Clive Owen, Dominic West or Jude Law into the mix.

 

[Warped9]

Back in the day I always thought Pierce Brosnan would have been better as Simon Templar than as James Bond.

It's sad that many folks, particularly the younger crowd, mightn't recognize The Saint because he's a great and fun character. When you read the books you can see he can be quite dangerous, ruthless and even somewhat grim while usually appearing to be devil-may-care. I've read so many of the original stories, but my favourites are probably The Last Hero (1929), also published as The Saint Closes The Case and The Creeping Death, and The Saint In New York (1934). I also enjoyed Vendetta For The Saint (1964) which was also adapted into a film of the same name.


To me he looks like he just stepped out from the pages of Leslie Charteris' books.

I also happened to hear a recording of one of the radio episodes with a young Vincent price as The Saint---quite different. Another tidbit is that I always thought it odd that Moore was shown driving a Swedish car, the white Volvo P1800 coupe, but I learned that the car was actually built in England before its production was moved many years later. Also, apparently Roger Moore was quite taken with the car and bought it from ATV and drove it about to and from work on the series.

 

[Holdfast]

One of the channels here went through a phase of rerunning lots of The Saint episodes a few months ago, so I caught a fair few. Good stuff; Moore does a great job infusing the character with a sense of amusement at the situations he finds himself, combined with the necessary steel to resolve them. The stories are usually tautly scripted too, which impressed me.

 

[Warped9]

One of the channels here went through a phase of rerunning lots of The Saint episodes a few months ago, so I caught a fair few. Good stuff; Moore does a great job infusing the character with a sense of amusement at the situations he finds himself, combined with the necessary steel to resolve them. The stories are usually tautly scripted too, which impressed me.

Whets my appetite all the more to find them on dvd.

 

[Starkers]

For me the Saint will always be Ogilvy, and he should drive a Jag XJS...sorry but that's the Saint I grew up with! I haven't seen nearly enough Moore sadly, the Sutton series was mostly forgettable...oddly I quite liked the Kilmer film!

 

[Warped9]

It's been an interesting read so far. Leslie Charteris remained closely involved with his creation through pretty much all of his incarnations. So far I've gotten to reading about the 1978 television series Return Of The Saint with Ian Ogilvy. I remember enjoying the show to some extent back in the day, but I did feel Ogilvy's take on Templar was a touch softer, lacking an edge and somewhat more reputable than Moore's portrayal. Yet Charteris was closely involved with that series as well. On both shows Charteris retained the right to peruse every script and story idea and offered suggestions and improvements. Sometimes he was listened to and sometimes not, to his eternal displeasure.

The television series were also an example of Charteris' approach to his creation in that after the mid '60s he pretty much gave up writing new stories whole cloth. From then on he basically shepherded others to create the stories while he encouraged, cajoled, berated and advised them along.

Ian Ogilvy apparently hated the clothes they wanted him to wear in the series. He thought the character should have been dressed more classically stylish rather than trendy stylish. There is also a general consensus that the series (which only went twenty-four episodes) never really got a chance particularly in the U.S.

I admit I'd like to see the show after all these years. It also has to be noted that reprints of the Saint books around that time did feature a character with something of Ogilvy's likeness on the covers. But Ogilvy never really made any money off the show and he was typecast for a very long time even though the show only lasted a season.

 

[Starkers]

Man I just got a titles flahback to the woman who takes his halo and thows it away before kissing him!

in fact...

That stick man is so camp!

 

[Warped9]

From what I've read the initial idea behind Return Of The Saint was for the new character to be Simon Templar's son. This was to acknowledge the passage of time since the '60s TV series. Apparently Roger Moore was to appear in a cameo in the pilot episode and then bow out. But it seems Leslie Charteris wasn't keen on the idea and they eventually chose to not to address the idea.

 

[IcecreamLtDan]

If you get a chance, you might enjoy Roger Moore's book "My word is my Bond". While the title gives an obvious idea of what it's about he does talk quite a bit about his career including a good bit about his days playing the role in "The Saint". I found the book very enjoyable.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/my-word-is-my-bond-sir-roger-moore/1014751268

 

[Australis]

Morre was p[erfect for the Saint, but not right for 007. A personal opinion, and not one many agree with, I know, but there y'go.

Moore was also very good with Tony Curtis in 'The Persuaders', look it up if you haven't seen it.

 

[Warped9]

Moore was perfect for the Saint, but not right for 007. A personal opinion, and not one many agree with, I know, but there y'go.

I essentially agree. It's interesting to note, though, that Moore was considered for 007, but at the time was considered too good looking.

Moore was also very good with Tony Curtis in 'The Persuaders', look it up if you haven't seen it.

I remember The Persuaders, something of a lightweight show, but it could be fun.

 

[Captain Dago]

Even so I'd love to see the Saint return in a well done film although I'm challenged to imagine who could play him.

How about Johnny Depp? He's not done any other series reboots.

 

[the G-man]

The Kilmer film was a decent action flick but it wasn't the Saint.

 

[Warped9]

The Kilmer film was a decent action flick but it wasn't the Saint.

No, it certainly wasn't. There were some decent elements to it, but I just couldn't buy Kilmer and the way he was written as Simon Templar.

I've finished the book and it was a good read. I'm definitely up for rereading some of the original stories and I want to see those early Roger Moore episodes.

I also have to reiterate that I'd love someone with the balls to make a period piece Saint film. Put him back in the '30s where he originated along with Inspector Teal and Patricia Holm. And have it where his identity isn't so well known.

Some years ago I wrote a fanfic crossover piece called Modern Knights in which Simon Templar and Patricia Holm visit WWII era Gotham City. Templar is trailing Oswald Cobblepot (such a Charteris sounding name, too) who swindled money from families in England. The Batman is treated much as a myth the police are trying to debunk. Templar's curiosity is piqued and finally satisfied when he actually comes face-to-face with the Batman. I had a lot of fun writing this and I should try to dig it up.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I remember The Persuaders, something of a lightweight show, but it could be fun.

Wasn't there some talk of a movie version with Steve Coogan and (if memory serves) Ben Stiller a few years ago?

The Kilmer film was a decent action flick but it wasn't the Saint.

Barry Norman, the long-term film critic for the BBC, reckoned it didn't owe anything to the Leslie Charteris novels except an apology!

Some years ago I wrote a fanfic crossover piece called Modern Knights in which Simon Templar and Patricia Holm visit WWII era Gotham City. Templar is trailing Oswald Cobblepot (such a Charteris sounding name, too) who swindled money from families in England. The Batman is treated much as a myth the police are trying to debunk. Templar's curiosity is piqued and finally satisfied when he actually comes face-to-face with the Batman. I had a lot of fun writing this and I should try to dig it up.

I think you mentioned this before, and I posed the question 'But what if they both look like Val Kilmer?!'

 

[Holdfast]

One of the channels here went through a phase of rerunning lots of The Saint episodes a few months ago, so I caught a fair few. Good stuff; Moore does a great job infusing the character with a sense of amusement at the situations he finds himself, combined with the necessary steel to resolve them. The stories are usually tautly scripted too, which impressed me.

Whets my appetite all the more to find them on dvd.

Hope you do! I must admit to never having read the books, so my only experience of the character is the Roger Moore version. So I don't know how book-accurate it is. Nonetheless, it is an enjoyable series.

Templar's curiosity is piqued and finally satisfied when he actually comes face-to-face with the Batman.

I think you mentioned this before, and I posed the question 'But what if they both look like Val Kilmer?!'

That's when you finally confirm that the world is a dark and evil place.

 

[Warped9]

I must admit to never having read the books, so my only experience of the character is the Roger Moore version. So I don't know how book-accurate it is. Nonetheless, it is an enjoyable series.

Moore sounds like the Saint to me, and his portrayal is more in vein of the later Saint books from the '40s onward when Simon Templar seems to have mellowed a touch. But the early Saint books of the '30s give Templar something akin to a manic energy. He is irrepressable. The books' Simon Templar could also on occasion be quite a cold and ruthless character---he could have quite a dangerous edge to him which may or may not have come across in the Moore series. Indeed Moore's portrayal of Bond at times was also very much like the Saint of the books.

In the books there is a phrase used once or twice: he had a saintly way of doing unsaintly things. The literary Saint rarely batted an eye or gave too much thought to one of the ungodly meeting his demise.

In the books, particularly during the '30s, it's never really whitewashed that Simon Templar is a crook. His distinction is that his victims are other criminals and the corrupt. In the '40s there are vague references that Templar is connected to American and British secret services, giving him something of a pass in how he went after the baddies. Both TV series don't really play up Templar's past, but rather come in when he's more widely known and vaguely respectable. For myself I think the best stories are generally from the '30s when he's feared and wanted by the cops as much as the criminals.

It's a little tough to imagine a character like the Saint today because crime fighting resources are so much more sophisticated today. That's partly why I would relish seeing a period piece Saint film because it puts the character back in the era when his wits and resourcefulness could really shine. I suppose it's akin to why some of us like shows like Murdoch Mysteries partly because of the appeal of seeing intellect and resourcefulness at work rather than gadgetry. A period piece would also have more of a romanticized air to it unlike a familiar contemporary setting.
And the Saint was always meant to be a romanticized character.

 

[Holdfast]

I wouldn't call Moore's Saint as having manic energy (I don't think Moore can do manic!) but he definitely comes across as highly determined, with a steely/hard edge to him and you certainly don't feel he'd pull any punches if he needed to go toe to toe with someone. I can't recall if his criminal past is specifically mentioned as an undeniable fact, but it's certainly referenced by others in the series, notably a couple of police characters.

By the way, probably not of interest to many others, but I read on another board that most of Moore's wardrobe in the series are his own clothes. It's a mark of how dapper a man Roger Moore is that he already had pretty much the perfect wardrobe for Simon Templar!

 

[Warped9]

It's disappointing that the early B&W episodes are available only in two very expensive sets on Amazon and they don't include all 71 B&W episodes. There is what is called a monochrome collection that does include all 71 B&W episodes, but they are Region 2 discs and so they're not the most accessible things to play in Canada or the U.S. I'm not about to go out of my way to buy a machine to play Region 2 discs just for one set of dvds.

It would really be nice if these episodes would be reissued in affordable sets for Region 1.