The ROTJ constructive criticism thread

[Reverend]

Let's not forget three very salient factors: -
1) Obi specifically characterised blasters as being both clumsy and random.
2) Stormtroopers aren't really professional soldiers in the modern sense. They're more like medieval conscripts used as a martial police force, with more than a little fanaticism thrown in. I mean just look at how they ran directly into fire while storming Leia's ship. You'd think they were in a hurry to be gunned down.
3) Star Wars is not, never has been, nor ever intended to be a hard sci-fi military drama. It's space fantasy fairytale. So in this context Stormtroopers are the hordes of palace guards that the dashing hero cuts though between swinging across the room on a chandelier and rescuing the princess, as he assaults the evil knight's castle. Those guys hardly ever land a blow either.
See also: Narrative Causality (particularly as it relates to Discworld.)

 

[General_Phoenix]

In my new head canon I just figure Obi-Wan is confusing Stormtroopers for Clone Troopers. Perhaps he doesn't know Stormtroopers aren't as well trained as the Clones he was used to. I guess recruitment, and the quality of their training really dropped off after the Clone Wars.

Rebels (yes I know it's just a cartoon) doesn't do them any favors either. Someone will toss a thermal detonator at some Stormtroopers, and they will just stand there and look at each other confused, not even attempting to find cover or run.

It is a little jarring, seeing how ruthless and effective the Clones were compared to Stormtroopers.

 

[UssGlenn]

At that point in the film? Were they? I was always under the impression they just stuck a tracking device on the falcon and let it escape, not order the troopers to miss.

It's implied. After Vader fails to extract the info from Leia and the prison break occurs, Vader hatches the plan to track them back to the base. I think this happens sooner rather than later, because if the troopers kill Leia then the location dies with her.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At that point in the film? Were they? I was always under the impression they just stuck a tracking device on the falcon and let it escape, not order the troopers to miss.

You can see the guard on the Falcon being reduced when Leia says "You came in that thing?" etc., which is evidently the point when the decision to let them go has been made. So, the firefights, the chasing through the corridors, and the swing across the chasm are all after that.

 

[Smellmet]

Shit I must have seen Star Wars over 200 times. I can't have been paying attention.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Shit I must have seen Star Wars over 200 times. I can't have been paying attention.

Just when I think there's nothing else to notice, I spot something new to me, on a subsequent rewatch.

 

[Reverend]

I just assumed they were changing the guard.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Didn't look that way to me.

 

[Reverend]

Bunch of guys standing around, another bunch walking away. We really don't have any solid context from which to draw an accurate conclusion.
In reality Lucas probably just wanted some activity in the frame for the sake of visual interest and didn't think any further than that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We really don't have any solid context from which to draw an accurate conclusion.

Context? Leia's observation and Tarkin's assertion that they were let go.

 

[Reverend]

Context? Leia's observation and Tarkin's assertion that they were let go.

So far as the halfhearted fighter pursuit is concerned, sure. But that doesn't necessarily extend to the Stormtroopers.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So far as the halfhearted fighter pursuit is concerned, sure. But that doesn't necessarily extend to the Stormtroopers.

They had what looked like a whole company in the hangar when the ship was brought on board. Then it was down to just five dudes, who were drawn away from their posts by Obi-Wan's duel with Vader. If it was so danged important to keep the ship from escaping, why were all those troopers pulled out of the hangar? It's a hundred-mile wide space station. Don't tell me they didn't have enough troopers to keep Vader's special prisoner from escaping.

 

[Reverend]

They had what looked like a whole company in the hangar when the ship was brought on board. Then it was down to just five dudes, who were drawn away from their posts by Obi-Wan's duel with Vader. If it was so danged important to keep the ship from escaping, why were all those troopers pulled out of the hangar? It's a hundred-mile wide space station. Don't tell me they didn't have enough troopers to keep Vader's special prisoner from escaping.

Five troopers ought to be plenty to guard one ramp from four people, or at least raise the alarm if they try to take the ship back. Most of the others are probably still deploy throughout that section trying to hunt them down.

Anyway, why worry about them escaping on that ship when they already tractored it in once? It's not like they would have known Kenobi had disabled the beam.

Here's the thing though: using "they let them escape" as a justification for poor aiming, utterly fails to account for how equally poor it was in the other two movies.

 

[fireproof78]

The stormtroopers were like bumbling morons in ANH too. How did they miss Han and Chewie after he ran screaming down the corridor at them? Or when Luke and Leia were stranded on that ledge? I know it's all part of driving the plot forward but let's face it, the stormtroopers being crap at shooting has been a running joke since the first film came out. Obi-Wan's little conversation to Luke about how accurate they were turned out to be nonsense didn't it?

I mean, there was a whole squad sent to take down the Falcon, and they couldn't hit one guy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

using "they let them escape" as a justification for poor aiming, utterly fails to account for how equally poor it was in the other two movies.

Yes. That's on the other two movies. In Cloud City, it was a noticeable, weak aspect of TESB. The gag was old by then.

Lucas lampshaded the issue in several ways in the first film. "I can't see a thing in this helmet" was one besides "They let us go" etc. "Not as clumsy or random as a blaster" was another.

I've got nothing to defend the Endor situation. Hug an Ewok and be happy, I guess.

 

[Reverend]

Yes. That's on the other two movies. In Cloud City, it was a noticeable, weak aspect of TESB. The gag was old by then.

Lucas lampshaded the issue in several ways in the first film. "I can't see a thing in this helmet" was one besides "They let us go" etc. "Not as clumsy or random as a blaster" was another.

I've got nothing to defend the Endor situation. Hug an Ewok and be happy, I guess.

The point being that if telling them to aim poorly on purpose made no appreciable difference from when they definitely were trying to hit something then it may as well not have happened. Ergo: it probably didn't.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The point being that if telling them to aim poorly on purpose made no appreciable difference from when they definitely were trying to hit something then it may as well not have happened. Ergo: it probably didn't.

I never said that the stormtroopers were told to aim poorly. I only said it looked to me like their numbers were being thinned in the hangar bay. I also said that dialog was in the first film that pretty much established that certain problems in their weapons and armor made it challenging for stormtroopers to aim well, and least in the opinion of the Jedi or Jedi-in-training.

 

[Roundabout]

It's George Lucas' love for repetition that he so fiercely advocates, from picture to picture. Han made Luke jealous in A New Hope by using the Princess and now, in ESB, Luke's making Han jealous by using the Princess. Got to milk every, single drop out of story elements that you can. Every last one of them ... and this thing with Leia being passed around is no exception.

That sort of repetition was not nearly as bad as the "I have a bad feeling about this" line being used over and over again.

It wouldn't have been that bad if it was just the original speaker who said it more than once. But it was multiple characters spewing out that line, and worse yet, Lucas extended that to characters in the first trilogy as well..

Though I find this idea intriguing, and it reminds me of a passage in Shadows of the Empire, Vader didn't seem to sense his own kinship with Leia in ANH.

I can think of three instances in ANH where Vader comes face to face with Leia. The first was when Leia was captured in the opening scene. Then when she was in the jail cell on the Death Star. And the third was when she had to witness the destruction of Alderaan.

Leia was under duress during the latter two instances. She would have been more vulnerable to Vader's mind probe. Yet Vader came up with nothing.

In none of those instances did Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" help him sense that Leia was kin nor give Vader "clairvoyance enough" to realize that Yoda's "another" meant Leia. I guess Lucas created the Skywalker family tree much later.

 

[LJones41]

In none of those instances did Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" help him sense that Leia was kin nor give Vader "clairvoyance enough" to realize that Yoda's "another" meant Leia. I guess Lucas created the Skywalker family tree much later.

I have never understood this criticism. Never. When was it ever established that a Force user could sense that a person whom he or she has never met before and who has not used the Force . . . is a blood relative? Vader did not sense that Luke was his son when he spotted the latter following Obi-Wan's death aboard the Death Star. He only found out about Luke's identity when an Imperial spy informed him.

I don't even see how Vader could have even guess, regardless of his connection to the Force. The only time he ever did was when he sensed Luke's thoughts about Leia in "Return of the Jedi".

 

[fireproof78]

In none of those instances did Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" help him sense that Leia was kin nor give Vader "clairvoyance enough" to realize that Yoda's "another" meant Leia. I guess Lucas created the Skywalker family tree much later.

He did.