The ROTJ constructive criticism thread

[fireproof78]

I do wonder why they was done. Why make Luke and Leia related?

To wrap up the "Another Skywalker" line from Yoda.

 

[Vger23]

My biggest issue with ROTJ, which seems to have been covered aplenty here, is the whole Tatooine Han Solo rescue. It's almost completely disconnected from the rest of the film (in much the same way as the "Save the Chancellor over Couresant" sequence was in ROTS).

Both movies suffer the exact same issue: you have sooooo much to wrap up...and you're wasting a ton of time on a random action set piece that does nothing but take away from the proper development of the primary plot.

I never had a problem with the Ewoks. Buncha heartless haters who never owned a teddy bear is what you all are.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

To wrap up the "Another Skywalker" line from Yoda.

That was Yoda's final word in ROTJ, before passing away.

The line from TESB is "No. There is another".

Which was made in reference to saying that Luke is their only hope.

 

[fireproof78]

I never had a problem with the Ewoks. Buncha heartless haters who never owned a teddy bear is what you all are.

Ewoks have to fight this:

ETA:

Stumbled upon a UseNet Archive ROTJ review that basically says ROTJ isn't "Star War." It feels like a TLJ review:

_Return_ofthe_Jedi_

by Kelvin Thompson

_Return_of_the_Jedi_ is a bad movie. In its predecessors producer George
Lucas (_American_Graffiti_) sketched out a clear, wonderful path for his
immortal saga to follow, but this latest installment takes a wrong turn
with every twist in its plot.

In its opening minutes, _Return_ claims to be Episode VI in the Star Wars
saga, but the viewer is disappointed to learn that in fact it is two
episodes. Episode VI-A involves Solo's escape from the clutches of Jabba
the Hutt, and Episode VI-B details the turning point in the rebels' war
on the Empire. The two plotlines are fine, but Lucas should have merged
them so they ran in parallel, just like the plotlines in each of Episodes
IV and V.

It might have gone as follows: The movie opens with a dramatic
confrontation between Luke and the rebellion's military commander. The
commander has decided that time is too pressing and Luke too important to
expend, so Solo's liberation must wait until after the Death Start falls.
Luke appeals to Leia, but she reluctantly agrees. Luke heads off in a
huff to finish his training with Yoda (when Luke arrives, Yoda admonishes
him, "Much to relearn have you."), and Leia begins preparations for the
assault on the generating station. However, a new rebel superweapon
breaks down, and only Solo knows some piece of information that is vital
to its repair (perhaps the Worm Asteroid from _Empire_ has high
concentrations of a rare mineral, and only Solo knows the coordinates of
the asteroid). The rebels judge the generating station to be
inpenetrable without the superweapon, so Luke is summoned from this
training to rescue Solo while the rebellion fights a holding action.

This way the movie could have worked toward all its climaxes
simultaneously -- the success of the battle hinges not only on capturing
the shield base, but also rescuing Solo and then retrieving the minerals
from the Worm Asteroid. Or perhaps the expedition to the asteroid could
fail, forcing a hasty revision in plans (as it is, the viewer becomes
bored that the rebels' plans succeed with clockwork precision). For
example: The rebels originally judge the base to be inpenetrable, and
plan instead to take the Death Star directly, but when the expedition to
the Worm Asteroid takes too long they are forced to make a desperate
assault on the generating base. The Ewok's surprisingly useful aid would
be even more appreciated under these circumstances.

But these enchancements of the plotline would have made only the
action-adventure elements of _Return_ acceptable, and the Star Wars saga
is much more than an action-adventure series. More properly, Star Wars
is a great epic of high fantasy, a close cousin of Tolkien's
Lord of the Rings , Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia , and Alexander's
Prydain series (Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant may also be
similar, but the viewer may not have read them). As such, the saga must
have strong elements of action and adventure, but it must also devote
some time to examining human and philosophical issues. In this latter
category, _Return_ fails as well.

The movie fails because it does not offer any new blows to the solar
plexus. The first Star Wars (Episode IV, _A_New_Hope_) delivered the
highest concentration of adventure to come along in decades, perhaps
ever, and it gave the viewer some outstanding human moments -- Leia's
brave defiance in captivity, Luke's uneasiness and frustration with his
special gift, Obi-Wan's defeat-cum-victory beneath Vader's saber (a scene
which will no doubt become even more meaningful when the first trilogy is
released), and Solo's last-minute heroism.

_Empire_ also came through with the thrills (although they were old hat
by then), but it went further and clobbered the viewer with betrayal and
defeat -- consider the many scenes of betrayal by the Falcon's
hyperdrive, the wrenching scene where Solo first meets Vader and learns
of Calrissian's betrayal, the air shaft scene where pious Luke learns of
his profound connection to the Dark Side and Obi-Wan's betrayal by
omission, and finally, the scenes where Solo and then Luke are outright
beaten, betraying their guaranteed victories because they are Good.

_Return_ offers some plot elements similar to those of _Hope_ and
_Empire_, but the viewer has already seen them and hence is bored. What
Lucas should have added was a sense of tragedy, a sense of loss to temper
the final victory. Yoda's death does not suffice, since it does not
directly contribute to the final victory (in fact, Lucas should have kept
the Jedi Master around).

On a minor point, more Ewoks should perish during the assault on the
generating station. In these battles the Imperial Storm Troopers,
supposedly the deadliest in the galaxy, are too easily beaten. And
although the Ewoks, like Hobbits, are easily underestimated, they get off
altogether too easily. Also, the rebels in the space battle around the
death star should suffer devastating losses.

More importantly, however, Luke should die -- and he should die by
Vader's unrepentant hand. The viewer knows he should die because
throughout the middle trilogy Luke has become a symbol for the battle
against the Empire -- he and the battle are one. Luke has only secondary
relationships with the other people in the rebellion, yet he *is* the
deciding factor in this decisive phase in the rebellion. As he has
prospered, the battle has prospered; as he has waned, the battle has
waned. It was his spark that rekindled the hopes of Light Side, and as
the fire catches, the spark which ignited it must die.

And the viewer knows Vader (and hence Anakin Skywalker) must die
unrepentant. The viewer realizes that good is corrupted instantly, while
evil yields to good only slowly -- the priest may lose his collar and
the virgin her maidenhead in a second, but the alcoholic remains an
alcoholic, the pederast a pederast, the tyrant a tyrant even after years
without sin. Hence, given the urgency of battle, the only believable way
to purge the galaxy of Vader is by annihilation.

The very structure of the middle trilogy demands that good meet evil,
that father meet son, that the Jedi Knight Skywalker meet the Dark Lord
Vader. And the viewer feels it is fitting that at this crucial balancing
point within the trilogy-of-trilogies -- between the first trilogy's
descent from light into darkness and the third's ascent back into light
-- that the two balancing representatives of good and evil -- the
Skywalker of the Light and the Skywalker of the Dark -- should meet and
destroy one another, tipping the balance toward the light.

The viewer expects a scenario along the following lines: First, after
his return from the rescue mission, Luke does not pose a threat to the
assault on the generating station -- his presence does not disturb the
force unless he performs extraordinary feats -- and it is he instead of
Solo (who is off chasing minerals) that leads the battle on the ground.
When the generator starts to fall, the Emporer sends Vader and an
additional brigade of Stormtroopers down to defend it. Vader meets Luke
just as the rebels take the central control room and he again tries to
win his son to the Dark Side. The Emporer, still in the Death Star,
senses the disturbance in the Force and uses the Dark Side to create a
field which keeps Luke's cohorts out of the duel (although they can see
it). The Emporer also sends down a spectre of himself to help Vader in
the fight.

Fortunately, Yoda's additional training has honed Luke's understanding of
the Good Side, and Vader's and the Emporer's advances are as ineffectual
as light sabers against a perfect mirror. In fact, Luke begins to win
over Vader. Vader banishes the Emporer's furious spectre, turns off his
saber, and opens his arms to Luke. As father and son embrace, however,
Vader unsheaths his saber and literally stabs Luke in the back. In his
dying moment, Luke dissolves the Emporer's isolating shield, then
disappears into vapor. Chewbacca, only an arm's distance away, reaches
out and rips off Vaders mask and respirator, exposing the ravages wreaken
not only by Obi Wan's saber in Episode III, but also by the insidious
Dark Side. As Vader flops around gasping for air and reaching for his
saber, the remaining rebels finish him off. Perhaps Leia gives him a
parting message and performs the coup de grace.

With the shield generator disabled, the final, desperate assault on the
Death Star commences. Only a fraction of the rebel fleet remains after
the earlier battles, and to make matters worse the Emporer is using the
Dark Side to unleash a terrible pyrotechnic barrage agains the rebels.
Nonetheless, the rebels fight determinedly. They make one unsuccessful
try at the core of the Death Star, then succeed in reaching the core,
only to have their bomb misfire.

Then, when everything looks utterly hopeless, Solo shows up with the
asteroid in tow. It is much too late for the minerals to do any good,
but, while Calrissian keeps the Imperial Fleet busy, and while the ghosts
of Luke and Obi-Wan distract the Emporer, Solo leads the *giant worm*
down to the center of the Death Star. The worm goes gaga over the large
power source and starts feeding. Solo races to the surface. Boom.

Everybody except Luke survives, and he does too, as a ghost. The Emporer
lives to serve as a nemesis in Episodes VII through IX, and to die in the
final, ultimate battle of Episode IX. Yoda and Leia remain to carry on
Jedi traditions. Hans and Leia live happily ever after. In Episode IX
we learn that even the worm has survived.

Unfortunately, in Episode VI Lucas chooses not to use a plot which
adequately follows the excitement and meaning introduced by Episodes IV
and V, hence the viewer leaves _Return_of_the_Jedi_ deeply disappointed.
The viewer can only hope that after a much-needed rest Lucas can overcome
the shoddiness of _Return_ when producing the first and third trilogies.

 

[JD]

Let's see. Things that annoyed me, but could've been improved with a tighter and sharper script.

1. The "stupid elaborate" infiltration plan into Jabba's palace. One by one, the main cast trickles in. They end up killing all of Jabba's muppet crew, so why the charade?

2. The muppet and puppet part of the film lasts more than half an hour. Too long, mate.

3. Luke joining Han, Leia and co on the Endor mission. Not only does Vader sense Luke, which alerts the Empire to Rebel insurgency. But Luke turns himself into the Imperials when he's on the planet. Luke denies there are others, but the Imperial officials and Vader aren't convinced. This is was a Trojan Horse gambit, ruined by Skywalker. And Luke is surprised when the Emperor tells him that that he knows about the fleet and has set a trap for them.
"LUKE YOU IDIOT! YOU GAVE THE GAME AWAY!"

4. Things slow to a crawl after the speed chase on Endor. Talk about second act sag. I think it's some 40-45 minutes before things start moving again.

5. Luke and Vader being supporting characters in their own movie. Sure, both Luke and Vader's arcs are wrapped up nicely. But that seems so far away from what the rest of the movie is about. The shield generator on Endor and the battle in the skies above the planet. Luke not turning to the dark side and defiantly facing the emperor and Vader, has nothing to do with the regime being toppled. That regime, which was once again propped up by having a second planet killing death laser.

6. The Planet Killing Death Laser 2.0. Why would they build another of these things? I guess we'll find out when Disney decides to make a sequel to Rogue One. They'll call it Rogue Two. After all, according to Mon Mothma, "many Bothans died to bring us this (plans for the 2nd Death Star) information".

Good thing the Empire learned their lesson twice and wouldn't think to build a 3rd planet killer with the same exploitable weakness as the first two...
TFA happened.
Shit

7. Besides recycling the threat from ANH, ROTJ recycles the twist from TESB. Leia is also a daughter of Vader. But seemingly, no one cares and it lacks the emotional impact of hearing it a second time.

I do wonder why they was done. Why make Luke and Leia related?

Originally the "another" was supposed to be referring to a different new female charater who would be Luke's sister, and the lead of the next trilogy. Once Lucas decided not to do another trilogy then, they decided it would work better to make the "another" a familiar character, so she ended up becoming Leia.

My biggest issue with ROTJ, which seems to have been covered aplenty here, is the whole Tatooine Han Solo rescue. It's almost completely disconnected from the rest of the film (in much the same way as the "Save the Chancellor over Couresant" sequence was in ROTS).

Both movies suffer the exact same issue: you have sooooo much to wrap up...and you're wasting a ton of time on a random action set piece that does nothing but take away from the proper development of the primary plot.

I never had a problem with the Ewoks. Buncha heartless haters who never owned a teddy bear is what you all are.

I've never really been that bothered by the way it ended up getting set up, they needed to do something to bring Han back. I guess they could have tried to tie it into the Rebellion plot better, but I think it works OK the way it is.

 

[suarezguy]

The Planet Killing Death Laser 2.0. Why would they build another of these things?

Why not? The first Death Star was supposed to be the centerpiece of the Empire, really valuable in tightening control, having a second could also be valuable although losing it would be embarrassing. But the Emperor was both overconfident and wanted something to lure the Rebels to him.

 

[fireproof78]

Why not? The first Death Star was supposed to be the centerpiece of the Empire, really valuable in tightening control, having a second could also be valuable although losing it would be embarrassing. But the Emperor was both overconfident and wanted something to lure the Rebels to him.

Too big a target to resist.

 

[Reverend]

Who would have the firepower to even have a hope of going toe-to-toe with a Death Star that's completed and not deliberately rigged to blow if someone sneezes too loudly near the reactor?

Never mind the superlaser that can vaporise a capital ship every few minutes; the surface of those things were positively bristling with heavy weaponry. Any fleet that got into effective weapons range would have been shredded by turbolaser fire and a barrage of torpedoes.

That said, the Death Stars' primary function was always as a weapon of terror and intimidation. If even half the planets in the galaxy decided it was worth risking being blown up rather than capitulate, It would have taken *centuries* to eliminate them all...but then nobody in their right minds would be willing to gamble that they won't be among the first to go.

 

[Tallguy]

Darth Vader being Luke's father is baggage from Empire. But it's terrible.

The Skywalker twins OTOH almost ruin the original Star Wars. "It's the story of a boy, a girl, and a --- DUDE IT'S YOUR SISTER!" Seriously, it even makes the POSTER feel skeevey.

I know she strangled Jabba with his own chain, but I'd have liked to have seen Leia mouth off to Jabba the way she did to Tarkin and Vader. Seriously, but OT sequels had a distinct lack of "Don't mess with the princess."

NO MORE DEATH STARS. (Given the later added history of the original DS and that it took twenty years to build, where the heck did this thing come from?!?)

The middle of this movie drags. Which is too bad because it's the most time the Original Three spend together since Star Wars.

The intro to the movie is gangbusters. I have seen few sequels that dribbled in the returning cast bit by bit with more effectiveness. With an audience cheer every time. Pirates 3 did pretty much as well, and I think it took a lot of cues from this film.

Visually this is still the greatest space battle of all time. Emotionally Star Wars is the greatest space battle of all time. You can name or quote all of the pilots from Red and Gold squadron. The pilots in Jedi are just cannon fodder.

I wonder if the Ewoks would have been any different if Williams had scored them differently?

 

[Prax]

I just figure the second death star was being constructed prior to A New Hope. The first one taking 20 years is reasonable if it had never been built before. And there's a good excuse to begin constructing one if there's a galactic scale war going on.

Additional death stars would take a fraction of the time, once a successful design had been found, and all the kinks worked out.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, the main hold-up was the weapon and they were initially stumped without Erso's involvement, then he spent the best part of two decades quietly sabotaging the whole thing. Post ANH all those roadblocks were gone and they were able to build the essential systems first before even completing the superstructure or outer shell. I imagine work began right away. Had the Emperor's plan succeeded, it would still probably have taken a few more years to get it 100% operational.

 

[Set Harth]

But it's terrible.

Objectively?

 

[fireproof78]

The Skywalker twins OTOH almost ruin the original Star Wars. "It's the story of a boy, a girl, and a --- DUDE IT'S YOUR SISTER!" Seriously, it even makes the POSTER feel skeevey.

Super skeevy. That and ESB kiss.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

And ANH kiss!

Mark

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And ANH kiss!

What about it?

 

[Tallguy]

And ANH kiss!

What about it?

Skeevy!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Skeevy!

Getting a peck on the cheek after saying, "I only wish Ben were here."? You're kidding.

 

[Tallguy]

Getting a peck on the cheek after saying, "I only wish Ben were here."? You're kidding.

I think the post was referring to "For luck!"

"Who is she? She's BEAUTIFUL!"

"I care!"

"I dunno. You think a princess and guy like me-"
"NO."

It's clearly meant as a romance. Han is the rival. And this was continued in Empire. In some drafts of the script (IIRC) one of the temptations that Vader offers Luke is Leia and disposing of Han.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think the post was referring to "For luck!"

"Who is she? She's BEAUTIFUL!"

"I care!"

"I dunno. You think a princess and guy like me-"
"NO."

It's clearly meant as a romance. Han is the rival. And this was continued in Empire. In some drafts of the script (IIRC) one of the temptations that Vader offers Luke is Leia and disposing of Han.

Ah, right. The other kiss.

Yes, the implication of rivalry is there. However, once I was all grown up, I realized that the body language and banter in SW77 makes it crystal clear that Han-Leia is where the chemistry for romance was all along. Just a look at the medal awarding scene is enough, in particular the body language exchanges the follow the awarding of each medal. The writing was already on the wall.

 

[UssGlenn]

I've always thought it was odd that they laid the groundwork for the sister reveal in TESB with Luke calling Leia through the force under Cloud City, yet they kept the kissing scene at the beginning.