I hope this hasn't been dealt with already, if so I'm sorry.
But which Enterprise novells set after the series deal with the Romulan war?
I know of The Kobiyashi Maru and Under The Raptor's Wing. Are there any more??
Is it ever established anywhere that the Federation wins the Romulan war
Unknown.or was there just a detante?
That doesn't mean they were allies, either, or that Qo'noS yet had major designs on conquering this part of the galaxy. The Romulans seemed more keen on conquering the Earth-Vulcan-Andor-Tellar-Alpha Centauri neighborhood than the Klingons, frankly.And why wouldn't the Klingons side with the Romulans against us? They weren't enemies back then.
To Earth itself, the capital of the Federation? Even if he managed to destroy Starfleet Headquarters or the Palais de la Concorde itself, his ship would be destroyed within seconds by orbital defense platforms, orbiting starbases, and/or orbiting Starfleet ships. That's a bit like asking why the Soviet Union didn't test its newest stealth submarines by parking it right on the Potomac River and attacking the United States Capitol, you know?What would constitute a victory in an intergalactic war. For instance, why didn't the commander in 'Balance of Terror' take his weapon to Earth to test it instead of some remote outpost that would tip their hand to the threat?
Key leaders in the Romulan Imperial Fleet who had been backing Shinzon in Star Trek: Nemesis -- including ones who had been itching to move more aggressively against the Federation -- turned on him when they realized he intended to commit genocide against the inhabitants of Earth. So it would, indeed, seem that most Romulans probably don't support genocide against Earth, anymore than, say, most Russians supported destroying Washington, D.C., during the Cold War.Obviously their interest wasn't in destroying Earth or genocide as I don't think that is of interest to any race. Is it?
There's a suggestion in DS9's "Homefront" that the Earth-Romulan War may have reached Earth itself, when Sisko describes a Jem'Hadar invasion as the sort of war Earth hadn't seen since the founding of the Federation.
We know from TNG's "The Defector" that the Earth-Romulan War ended in something called the Battle of Cheron, which was a loss for the Romulans. This may be a reference to Charon, Pluto's moon in real life, but that's just my speculation.
What would constitute a victory in an intergalactic war.
For instance, why didn't the commander in 'Balance of Terror' take his weapon to Earth to test it instead of some remote outpost that would tip their hand to the threat?
Besides, the intent was not to start a war, per se, nor even to try to kill all that many people. The real intent was to demonstrate their strength and to gauge how powerful the Federation was, but to do so without killing so many people and/or making such a high-profile attack that the Federation was angered into responding disproportionately or going to war. It was an elaborate mind game, in other words, not a prelude to invasion.
Key leaders in the Romulan Imperial Fleet who had been backing Shinzon in Star Trek: Nemesis -- including ones who had been itching to move more aggressively against the Federation -- turned on him when they realized he intended to commit genocide against the inhabitants of Earth. So it would, indeed, seem that most Romulans probably don't support genocide against Earth, anymore than, say, most Russians supported destroying Washington, D.C., during the Cold War.
There's a suggestion in DS9's "Homefront" that the Earth-Romulan War may have reached Earth itself, when Sisko describes a Jem'Hadar invasion as the sort of war Earth hadn't seen since the founding of the Federation.
That line could be a reference to "Earth" as a political entity, a nation involved in a war, rather than the physical planet itself. (By analogy, America, the nation, was a combatant in WWII, but America, the geographical location, was almost completely unaffected by the war.)
Doubtful. They're pronounced differently. Charon is pronounced either like "Karen" (after the Greek pronunciation) or "shahr-en" (by the preference of its discoverer and most English-speaking astronomers, since it was actually named for its discoverer's wife Charlene). As I recall, "Cheron" is pronounced like "chair-un" or maybe "Sharon."We know from TNG's "The Defector" that the Earth-Romulan War ended in something called the Battle of Cheron, which was a loss for the Romulans. This may be a reference to Charon, Pluto's moon in real life, but that's just my speculation.
Besides, the intent was not to start a war, per se, nor even to try to kill all that many people. The real intent was to demonstrate their strength and to gauge how powerful the Federation was, but to do so without killing so many people and/or making such a high-profile attack that the Federation was angered into responding disproportionately or going to war. It was an elaborate mind game, in other words, not a prelude to invasion.
Well, no, the dialogue between the Commander and Centurion in BoT makes it clear that the Praetor is testing these new weapons as a prelude to war. Heck, that's the whole basis of the Commander's character arc, the fact that he's obeying orders to provoke a pointless war even though it's the last thing he wants.
But that doesn't mean the goal was to invade Earth. The goal was more likely to expand the Romulans' territory by taking some of the worlds on the Federation border, rather than to defeat the whole Federation in one swoop.
The UFP is too big to think of as a single country. It's many different nations/worlds joined together into a close partnership.
Key leaders in the Romulan Imperial Fleet who had been backing Shinzon in Star Trek: Nemesis -- including ones who had been itching to move more aggressively against the Federation -- turned on him when they realized he intended to commit genocide against the inhabitants of Earth. So it would, indeed, seem that most Romulans probably don't support genocide against Earth, anymore than, say, most Russians supported destroying Washington, D.C., during the Cold War.
Right. Same deal. What Shinzon's co-conspirators wanted was a policy of revanchism (retaking lost territory by force) and expansionism. They wanted to make their own empire bigger, not specifically to destroy a rival nation.
So Shinzon's attack on Earth was akin to General Ripper in Dr. Strangelove ordering a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Russia (if I may reverse the political polarity of my analogy). Most everyone else on his side tried to stop him from doing it, because it was too drastic an act, one that they knew would bring ruin to everyone.
So you're saying that even if the Romulans wanted to destroy us,
say they rebuilt that weapon and had it cloaked, they wouldn't in fear of retalliation?
But if nobody could get to them or even find them, if they cloaked their planet say, wouldn't that fear go away?
That line could be a reference to "Earth" as a political entity, a nation involved in a war, rather than the physical planet itself. (By analogy, America, the nation, was a combatant in WWII, but America, the geographical location, was almost completely unaffected by the war.)
I don't think that's the case. The line was specifically in reference to the idea of Earth, the planet itself, being physically attacked.
Granted, one could also interpret that line as referring to the Xindi attack of 2153, though. Like I said, it's speculation on my part that the Earth-Romulan War reached Earth.
It's been a while since I watched "Balance of Terror," but the impression I remember getting was that the Romulans' objective was to gauge Federation strength and freak the Federation out, but not provoke the war just yet -- rather, that the idea was to start a war of expansion into Federation territory once they'd determined their cloaking systems and new weapons were adequately powerful. But I may well be misremembering that episode.
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.
CENTURION: If we are the strong, isn't this the signal for war?
COMMANDER: Must it always be so? How many comrades have we lost in this way?
CENTURION: Our portion, Commander, is obedience.
COMMANDER: Obedience. Duty. Death and more death. Soon even enough for the Praetor's taste. Centurion, I find myself wishing for destruction before we can return. Worry not. Like you, I am too well-trained in my duty to permit it.
Well, yes and no. In terms of cultural unity, I think that's fair -- certainly, for instance, Vulcan and Earth still retain separate and unique enough cultures even into the 24th Century that you can't just lump them all in under a single "Federation culture" label. But by the same token, the Federation acts with unity, as a single entity, when it comes to things like foreign states invading its territory. And certainly the Federation itself is a state in its own right.
Though I'm afraid I don't see how the issue of Federation unity, one way or the other, relates to the question of whether the Romulans' goal was to conquer the whole Federation or just some of its worlds near the Romulan border.
(Now, if only Shinzon's motives for launching that attack had made any sense. But arbitrary characterization is a topic for another thread.)
Specifically, I would contend that Romulan motives changed throughout the centuries. The goal of Romulan government of the 2150s, for instance, seems to have been to dominate the Earth-Vulcan-Andor-Tellar-Alpha Centauri region of space (which I'll call the "core worlds" for the sake of convenience") in some way -- either unofficially, through espionage (placing a Romulan mole as head of government of Vulcan, the regional hegemon), or officially, through direct military conquest and annexation (the tactic to which they switched in the novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing).
The goal of the Romulan government(s) of the mid-to-late 23rd Century, by contrast, seems to have been revanchism and regional expansion -- capturing territory along its borders with the Klingons and Federation, and ensuring that it had sufficiently advanced technology that neither the Klingons nor the UFP would be able to take its territory.
"When the Bough Breaks" established quite firmly that the ability to cloak an entire planet is far beyond the technology of even the 24th Century Federation, let along the 23rd Century Romulan Star Empire. And even if they could cloak Romulus, it would be child's play to calculate its position based upon observations of its orbit from previous observations.
It's been a while since I watched "Balance of Terror," but the impression I remember getting was that the Romulans' objective was to gauge Federation strength and freak the Federation out, but not provoke the war just yet -- rather, that the idea was to start a war of expansion into Federation territory once they'd determined their cloaking systems and new weapons were adequately powerful. But I may well be misremembering that episode.
Again, let's go to the transcript:
CENTURION: We've seen a hundred campaigns together, and still I do not understand you.
COMMANDER: I think you do. No need to tell you what happens when we reach home with proof of the Earthmen's weakness. And we will have proof. The Earth commander will follow. He must. When he attacks, we will destroy him. Our gift to the homeland, another war.
CENTURION: If we are the strong, isn't this the signal for war?
COMMANDER: Must it always be so? How many comrades have we lost in this way?
CENTURION: Our portion, Commander, is obedience.
COMMANDER: Obedience. Duty. Death and more death. Soon even enough for the Praetor's taste. Centurion, I find myself wishing for destruction before we can return. Worry not. Like you, I am too well-trained in my duty to permit it.
So the plan was to prove that they had the power to beat Starfleet, and if they returned home with that proof, the Praetor would then launch the war he wanted to launch.
Indeed, the Commander seems to be saying that destroying the Enterprise would automatically be a declaration of war.
Note also that it's a major plot point in the episode that simply entering the Neutral Zone, in Spock's words, "would constitute an act of war." That's why Kirk has to wrestle with the decision to cross into the Zone -- because it's crossing the Rubicon, committing the Federation to war. So just by crossing the border at all, not to mention destroying the outposts, the BoP was already committing an act of war.
Which, come to think of it, leaves me wondering why there wasn't a war right after this. Both sides violated the Zone and committed acts which constituted declarations of war. So a state of war did legally exist between the two nations as of the end of "Balance of Terror."
But then, given the BoP's defeat, I guess the Praetor had no stomach to prosecute the war, and so there was probably some hasty diplomatic maneuvering over subspace to renew the treaty. Maybe the Praetor used the old dodge of claiming the aggressing crew were renegades.
I'm talking from the perspective of the aspiring invader. Regardless of political organization or the Federation's response, the simple fact is that the UFP is not a single place, a single territory. As a potential object of conquest, it makes more sense to perceive it as multiple interrelated territories rather than a single country.
It wasn't about the whole ball game, not about conquering or destroying the Federation itself -- the aggressors just wanted to take worlds away from the Federation, or reclaim worlds they felt it had taken from them.
Specifically, I would contend that Romulan motives changed throughout the centuries. The goal of Romulan government of the 2150s, for instance, seems to have been to dominate the Earth-Vulcan-Andor-Tellar-Alpha Centauri region of space (which I'll call the "core worlds" for the sake of convenience") in some way -- either unofficially, through espionage (placing a Romulan mole as head of government of Vulcan, the regional hegemon), or officially, through direct military conquest and annexation (the tactic to which they switched in the novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing).
I don't see it as an attempt to conquer those worlds. Rather, the impression I got from ENT was that the Romulans felt threatened by the growing unity of these worlds that Archer was helping to bring together. They saw it as a potential rival that was too close for comfort, and feared that if these worlds united and formed a government bigger and stronger than their own, it could impede their own expansionism or perhaps threaten their territory. That's why they staged the whole masquerade with the holoship, making the worlds think they were being attacked by one another -- in order to sabotage the peace and prevent that union from forming. As long as Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar were small and divided, they didn't pose a threat to the Romulans' agendas.
True, they did seem to be engaged in more direct infiltration on Vulcan, but I think it's clear that the Romulans would have motives toward Vulcan that they wouldn't have toward other worlds.
If there's any unifying theme to Romulan actions from 2268-70, it seems to be a mix of aggressively defending their own borders and trying to capture Starfleet vessels for study and for political gain (by making them look like the aggressors).
And by the movie era, the Romulans appear to be quite tame, on such good terms with the Federation that Nanclus is actually allowed to sit in on high-level strategic meetings in the Federation President's office.
So the plan was to prove that they had the power to beat Starfleet, and if they returned home with that proof, the Praetor would then launch the war he wanted to launch.
Quite probably, but I think it also depends on how literally the Commander is speaking when he talks of war. It's not uncommon for people to throw around words like that a bit inaccurately, after all.
Well, to me, it reads more as him talking about the long-term consequences of his mission than saying that the destruction of the Enterprise will itself instantly be a declaration of war.
...
Well, I'm no lawyer, but it would seem to me that there is a distinction between an act of war and a declaration of war.
According to the novel Articles of the Federation, only the Federation Council can declare war for the UFP -- and, in real life, only the United States Congress can declare war for the United States, and only the Queen-in-Council can declare war for the United Kingdom, etc. So a declaration of war -- or, to get really pedantic, a declaration of a state of war -- is a decision, something that can only be undertaken by the constitutional entities legally empowered to make that decision.
*nods* I'm always surprised when people treat every single conflict or potential conflict as though it's an existential threat for the entire UFP.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there episodes of TNG that establish a history of Klingon-Romulan skirmishes during the 2260s to 2290s?
We use essential cookies to make this site work, and optional cookies to enhance your experience.