Spoilers The Rise of Skywalker Novel Confirms How Palpatine Returned

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by JD, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    That's pretty much what I figured.
     
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Only would have taken a few seconds to explain that in the movie. But nope, we really needed lightspeed skipping.
     
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  4. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That is basically the direct Dark Empire comic's mention of him surviving. His clones would fail rapidly due to the corruption of the Dark Side, and he'd transfer to a new one, but would wish to get a new host. In that instance, Leia's third child was the target. Here, he decides on someone more closely related to himself, rather than the spawn of Skywalker. But, as it is, he managed to at least pull himself back to pre-death normal (plus extra Dark Side power for the lulz)...before dying again, maybe forever this time.
     
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  5. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I realized after my other post that I should have posted the passage here for anyone who didn't feel like going to the IGN story in the link.
    "All the vials were empty of liquid save one, which was nearly depleted. Kylo peered closer. He'd seen this apparatus before, too, when he'd studied the Clone Wars as a boy. The liquid flowing into the living nightmare before him was fighting a losing battle to sustain the Emperor's putrid flesh."

    "What could you give me?" Kylo asked. Emperor Palpatine lived, after a fashion, and Kylo could feel in his very bones that this clone body sheltered the Emperor's actual spirit. It was an imperfect vessel, though, unable to contain his immense power. It couldn't last much longer."
     
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  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Not sure it was necessary.
     
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  7. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Neither was bringing him back, and yet here we are...
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    It worked for the story. Not perfect, but I liked it.
     
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  9. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was a bad idea when Dark Empire did it, and it's still a bad idea.

    For me, the most frustrating aspect is JJ's justification for the whole thing. He felt that it would be dramatically more interesting for Rey if rather than being a "nobody", she was related to the worst person in the galaxy...as if the OT didn't already cover that ground with Luke and Vader!
    Don't get me wrong, from what I've seen of JJ, I like him as a person but creatively...I swear the guy either doesn't have an original thought in his head, or doesn't respect his audience enough to challenge them with anything new.
     
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  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Agree to disagree.
    I can see both sides on this. I personally would have prefer he being a nobody but even so, ignorant of her parentage, was still an interesting thematic development.

    Again, personally, I enjoyed it, but it isn't how I would have done it.
    I don't think it is about originality, per se. I think it is a matter of what he finds highly enjoyable and entertaining. Unfortunately, it is stuff that has been done before. Yeah, mixed bag.
     
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  11. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Gosh, I remember suggesting that months ago and being completely shot down by certain posters who just knew better.
     
  12. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Been there. Which makes moments like this so much fun.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    It was.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Mileage I guess.
     
  15. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's objectively poor storytelling and showed a very casual, almost dismissive disregard for the other 8 movies.
    Same with the "light skipping" nonsense, same with the magically teleporting objects, same with the nonsensical "I made a secret Empire, AND a super SUPER secret Empire!" plot.
    Also: "something something something SPIRIT TRANSFER! Something something something ARMY OF CREEPY ROBED PEOPLE!"
    If you can think of one good narrative reason to undermine Anakin's redemption, I'd really like to hear it.
    Taken in isolation, sure. but it's part of a pattern that repeats all through the movie and goes all the way back to TFA. A movie I defended for following a similar pattern as ANH in the presumption that they'd use the familiar jumping off point to go in a new direction. TLJ seemed to bare that out, but tRoS just went and did a 3 point turn and scuttled right back into pure and unabashed 'memberberry town.
    It's a poor storyteller that just reproduces what he likes and not put a unique spin on things. Lucas took in influences from MANY sources but still managed to make something that was both familiar and utterly unique and it's own thing.

    Hell, Lucas himself is purported to have said of TFA something to the effect of "there's nothing new here!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Since I don't think it undermines Anakin's redemption I don't know if I can offer the best response. But, given that Palpatine had constant plans in motion I would say his efforts to return make sense from a narrative idea of evil being defeated for at time. Kind of like the original SW a bit.
    Again, I see the point, but I loved tROS for the heavy spiritual aspects of it. Seeing the Dark Side and the Light Side rising in individuals was probably my favorite facet of the new trilogy.


    I guess so, yes.

    I respect Lucas but cannot agree with him there.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So what did Anakin's sacrifice and redemption even mean? He didn't bring balance to the force, he deferred it so someone else could do it later. It takes what was a profound and meaningful act and cheapens it. Again: poor storytelling. Either JJ doesn't care, or he doesn't understand the concept. Either way, it's a problem.
    I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. I enjoyed it overall. But I'm not going to allow that to give the movie a pass for making some objectively horrendous narrative choices.
    I mean bad enough that this movie takes a dump on the other two trilogies, it doesn't even bring a conclusion to it's own trilogy!
    Poe & Finn's arcs from the previous movies seem to get reset, as if JJ has no clue what to do with them! Rose gets relegated to a glorified extra, and yet the movie sees fit to drawn focus to two new characters in their place, neither of which do anything but take up screen time.
    Name one person who'd know better than George.
    ...Yeah. I think I'l deferre to his judgement on this one. ;)
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    With respect, I don't think it is that he doesn't care. And, I genuinely hate the idea that it is apathy that guides their decisions.

    I disagree that it cheapens it at all. It was a profoundly sacrificial act, not done done to bring "balance to the Force" but to save the life of one. That's why it matters.
    I don't agree on their arcs being reset. I think we see them stepping in to roles, learning from their mistakes.

    As for the rest, yeah I can't agree at all.
    Marcia Lucas.

    Also, Lucas is also the one who said selling Lucasfilm to Disney was selling them to "white slavers." While I respect Lucas, I cannot agree.
     
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  19. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And now it's a FUTILE act. He changed nothing. Prevented nothing. And saved one life for what exactly? Again, it's deferring a victory. Anakin may as well have thrown Luke down that shaft for all the difference it'd make.

    No matter which way you try and twist it, the whole plot shows an utter absence of originality. Rather than follow through on the character and plot arcs from the OT in a logical way, these movies just revert everything back to square one (well, "square 4" anyway.) They even recycle the planet killer...TWICE!

    You may have enjoyed the ride (again, so did I for the most part) but one should not allow that blind one to the very obvious and not-at-all-subjective flaws that this movie is absolutely riddled with.

    Poe's arc in TFA is "devil may care flyboy becomes devil may care flyboy, because he was suppose to die in the 1st act...oh well!". His TLJ arc was "devil may care flyboy gets a hard lesson on leadership, responsibility and strategic rather than tactical thinking." His tRoS arc was "devil may care flyboy becomes devil may care flyboy with an extra rank pip and also he was a smuggler at some point and has an old flame but never mind any of that since that doesn't actually matter...oh well!"

    1) She's a talented editor who gets what Lucas was going for, but no, no she doesn't.
    2) And even if she did, what pray tell is Marcia Lucas's opinion on the matter?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    But that's not the point of the narrative. The point is about personal choice. Anakin made his choice to turn back to the light.

    Regardless of the consequence it was still Anakin's choice. No movie changes that impact.

    Sorry, I'm very much a person centered type of viewpoint when it comes to stories. The big picture is difficult but the choices of individuals matter far more to me.

    Mileage.
    Did I say it was entirely original? I feel like you are arguing against some point that I'm not making...:shrug:
    It matters on a character level. Again, different point of view, but Poe had to go from an almost self-centered point of view (my way or the high way) to actually functioning as a leader. Of putting aside personal ills and history to allow team members to use their strengths.

    I think his arc was good. I find it even more interesting in tROS because he has to own some demons form his past.
    The sequel trilogy is heavily flawed. Frustratingly so. That's why I started a thread to explore creating a new Sequel Trilogy.

    But, I will not let the flaws ruin my enjoyment of the films. I don't see all the issues you do with Palpatine coming back, which is fine but ultimately we're not going to see eye to eye on these points.

    Should have included a winky emoji. That was meant as a joke.

    TL:DR This is a milage situation. I'll not claim (and never will claim) the ST is perfect or perfectly original. However, I enjoyed it, the characters and felt their arcs were done well enough. Could they have been better? Um, yeah, absolutely. Would I do it differently? Definitely.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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