I found Data's death to be gratuitous and an unnecessary attempt to add gravitas to Nemesis. I'd be all for his return if it was handled well.
The Return of Data? (spoilers)
- Thread starter bok2384
- Start date
I hated that scene!
It tok me right out of the movie and added nothing to the story. They should have cut that scene of right after they found B-4's head.
They should never have had B4 or shinzon or any of that.
However, that said, the poor quality of the movie has led to some truly excellent fiction which balances the books IMHO.
However, that said, the poor quality of the movie has led to some truly excellent fiction which balances the books IMHO.
The Title of one of Christopher's upcoming novels seemed to me to be something regarding the future of Data...but I may be reaching.
Nemesis would've been better if it'd been like the Shatnerverse MU trilogy with MU Picard trying to steal the E-E for the Alliance to use against the Terran rebels. Two Pat Stewarts, two Marina Sirtises (Sirtisi? Sirtiss?) and chuck in some DS9 and VGR characters too.
I thought at the time that B4 was included as a way of allowing them to resurrect Data in STXI, had NEM been a success (as someone said, all the cop-out of TSFS without even bothering to wait for the next movie to do so).
However, I think it shows good judgement and integrity on the part of Pocket that they're not going down this all-too-obvious route. I really like the character of Data, but with Trip coming back from the dead in the ENT-R, the return of Sisko in the DS9-R and, of course, the Shatnerverse, Treklit was in danger of being the place where dead characters go to live (okay, I know Sisko wasn't dead, but still ...). There is much scope for character development for Picard, Geordi, Worf & co in how they respond to the loss (the death of Tasha Yar could never have had the same impact as Data's) and allows for new character dynamics. Plus it's good that characters can be expendable. As long as you don't kill 'em for the sake of it (yes 24 writers, I'm talking to you!).
However, I think it shows good judgement and integrity on the part of Pocket that they're not going down this all-too-obvious route. I really like the character of Data, but with Trip coming back from the dead in the ENT-R, the return of Sisko in the DS9-R and, of course, the Shatnerverse, Treklit was in danger of being the place where dead characters go to live (okay, I know Sisko wasn't dead, but still ...). There is much scope for character development for Picard, Geordi, Worf & co in how they respond to the loss (the death of Tasha Yar could never have had the same impact as Data's) and allows for new character dynamics. Plus it's good that characters can be expendable. As long as you don't kill 'em for the sake of it (yes 24 writers, I'm talking to you!).
I am not in favour of ignoring that part in "Articles of the Federation". I like the book and I also think, what KRAD wrote makes a lot of sense.
Having said that, B4 is an artificial intelligence. That means, who knows, some time in the future B4 might get an upgrade that will give him more capacity. I think something like that will happen eventually. It is just a matter of time if nothing suddenly happens to him, as it was the case with Data.
As with people, I think it makes also sense to say you can clone (meaning, copy) an AI but not a personality. B4 already has very different experiences than Data, also because he is maturing much more slowly. Data and B4 will never be the same, even when B4 will become more sophisticated as he is now.
I don't think that was the main reason they did it, to be fair. It had become a formula that TNG movies were about Picard first, Data second, everyone else a distant third. If the movie was going to revolve around Picard meeting a warped mirror image of himself, then that necessitated including a B plot wherein Data met a warped mirror image of himself. Even if Spiner hadn't decided to bow out with this film, the B-4 subplot would still have been in it.
As it was, the intent of the B-4 character was to show Data a version of himself who was incapable of growth or change, in order to throw into relief the fact that Data was capable of growth and change, and had grown to the point that he could give his life (the ultimate change) for others. Arguably that plotline fell flat (I mean, Data was always willing to sacrifice himself for others), but it wasn't just about "let's give Spiner a backdoor if he wants to come back for the next movie." It was partly about that, but not exclusively.
Just in the editing. And I blame that more on the climate of the movie industry in general, the preference for blockbuster action and relentless pacing over more thoughtful, measured storytelling.
Are you kidding? KRAD knows karate. I ain't messin' with him.
There's also the fact that I agree 100 percent with his take on B-4. Turning B-4 into a revenant Data is by far the least interesting thing you could do with the character. Oh, it made for a nice standalone story in SNW 10, but where do you go from there?
^ Wow, that sure is a lot of salt you're rubbing in that wound, Cicero. Is that sea salt or just large-grain iodized table salt? Where do you get it all? Do you buy wholesale?
Turtletrekker said:
I hated that scene!
I'm tellin' ya...if they just added beach music during that scene, we coulda had an Oscar winner on our hands!
That, or have a cute little ten-year-old boy driving...Broccoli said:
Turtletrekker said:
I hated that scene!
I'm tellin' ya...if they just added beach music during that scene, we coulda had an Oscar winner on our hands!
The problem is that people were scared off by all the questions about having to read other books in order to understand AotF.
Don't worry about it. There were quite a few different ways his name was spelled in contemporary records -- Shakespeare, Shakspere, Shakspear, Shakspeare, Shaxpere, Shaxspere, Shakespere, Shakspeer. I think the only reason we favor "Shakespeare" is that the First Folio used it. (And most of the spellings suggest that it was actually pronounced like "shack-spear" instead of "shake-spear.")
Despite the intentions, it still fell flat on the table. At least, this time Data wasn't comic relief.
It was also in the screenplay and decision making process. They wanted to emulate TWOK and tried too hard, mixing it in with bigger explosions and getting away from what TNG was during the run of the show (a course that was set after FC). All of it helped contribue to a less-than-stellar outing.
But the problem, also, is that Trek is seen as an action-adventure blockbuster movie franchise by the studio and not a thoughtful science-fiction franchise. Hopefully, we will get the right mix of adventure, fun, character and sf concepts in the next film.
Similar threads
