The Real Role Model

[Katinka]

(This is the first thread I am starting. I am actually a little nervous about posting it. Take a stab at it, I am curious about the feedback, just hope I won't come away feeling like a total fool)

I have had this little pet theory of mine for a bit and I am putting it out here so that you all can take a whack at it. I am under no illusion that this is not a completely biased take born from the desire to turn Chakotay into a hero, albeit a quiet one, because he is just so damn hot.
So here it goes.
Mulgrew wanted Janeway to be a role model for women and I think she did a good job at it. However, the real role model in my mind is Chakotay.

(okay, I can basically hear the collective groan of the Chakotay critics but let this girl have some fun)

Chakotay not only let Janeway be the captain, he supported her, was loyal to her and more than once swallowed his pride of that I am sure. He defended her decisions, even when he would have decided otherwise – everything a good XO should do.
I am not a great Next Gen fan and haven’t seen them all but I don’t recall Riker organizing mutinies on a regular basis and people don’t call him a yesman for that, as they frequently do with poor Chakotay.

Chakotay was something for Janeway, that is still rare today and was even rarer 20 years ago: a man supporting a strong woman and playing second fiddle without questioning her at every turn and organizing insurrections every time they have a different opinion. He is the man standing behind the strong woman. Women have done that for men for, like, forever, why can’t a guy do that for a woman without being called a weakling?

He could have been more of a badass and many people seem to think that would have been appealing and more becoming to a Marquis and Angry Warrior. But he wasn’t an angry warrior anymore, he had found a balance in his life and made a promise to be her loyal XO. He kept that, but that does not make him weak or a yes-man. This makes him a role model in my mind, a man who has conquered his ego enough not to go to battle every time he doesn’t get his way. A man who has the strength to accept that he doesn’t always have the last word and who does not feel emasculated by it. That is real strength, not sable rattling, arrogance and slamming fists on random available surfaces.
In all of that he doesn’t lose his own opinions, he just knows to step back when doing his job as XO. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t have strong convictions and ideals he would passionately argue and defend.
If more men could behave that way, there would be a lot more women in positions of power.

I guess that his spirituality helped him to attain this balance. I am not a very spiritual person myself so this part is hard for me to understand but admire the result, however it was achieved. I like his quiet, unassuming strength, his loyalty and his calmness, which some people refer to as wooden.

He is exactly the man he needed to be to let Janeway be a role model for women whether he was deliberately written that way (highly doubtful) or not. It is hard to step up to the plate as a woman but I am convinced it is equally hard and honorable to step back as a man in a society that still seems to expect that the guy leads the way and the woman follows behind supporting him.

So, there you have it, my defense of Chakotay, the real role model of Voyager for a more modern understanding of gender roles.

 

[Kilana2]

The dislike of Chakotay of many fans is lost on me, too.
Boring Chakotay episodes are the result ob bad scripts. On the other hand, Q dislikes Chakotay too and seems to reflect some fan's attitude.
I have to agree. Despite a former Maquis, Chakotay learned a lot by being Janeway's right-hand. And she benefitted from his calm, measured behaviour. Therefore I liked the relaunch novels establishing their relationship further.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Chakotay - in the hands of another actor - would have been a fantastic character.

 

[Lynx]

Some good points here.

First of all, I like Chakotay. My no 2 favorite in the series after Kes. Janeway is my third.

As for his actions on Voyager, he did the only thing he could do. I mean, he knew that the only chance for him and the other Maquis to get back to the Alpha Quadrant was to join the Voyager crew and go along with Janeway's wish that the crew should be one crew, a Starfleet crew. Some of the other Maquis may not have liked it but they had so much respect for Chakotay that most of them did get a long with it. Now, that's one thing which speaks for Chakotay, he did have the respect of the Maquis so he must have been an excellent Maquis Commander.

I'm a fan of The Next Generation too and I like Riker as well, one of my favorites in that series. But I have to agree that Riker was more of a yes man than Chakotay.

As for gender roles, I haven't thought so much about that. The gender debate, at least where I live has sometimes become rather hysterical and I try to stay out of it as much as possible. I guess that in 2371, most of those issues are sorted out which may also be a reason for Chakotay's behavior in that matter. Most of his decisions overall were quite rational in the situation he was.

The only minus thing I can find for Chakotay is that he could have been better written. He had the potential to be the best First Officer ever in any Star Trek series and the writers did screw that up. There could have been more Chakotay-focused episodes during the series, he was more and less abandoned from season 4 and onwards when everything was focused on Seven, Janeway and The Doctor. But the other main characters were also shoved aside in the later seasons.

I also thinkt that they should have given him a proper tribe instead of that Rubber Tree people rubbish they came up with. When I think of Chakotay, I see him as a Mayan.

Anyway, I see Chakotay as one of Star Trek's best characters and I think that Robert Beltran did an excellent job in portraying the character and give life to it.

 

[Kilana2]

Chakotay - in the hands of another actor - would have been a fantastic character.

Why do you dislike Robert Beltran?


And, by the way: I didn't like the episode where Chakotay was boxing. I hate this kind of sports....

 

[Jedi_Master]

Why do you dislike Robert Beltran?


And, by the way: I didn't like the episode where Chakotay was boxing. I hat this kind of sports....

I don't dislike Robert Beltran, I just have seen more emotion out of a 2x4. (That's a piece of lumber)

 

[Katinka]

Chakotay - in the hands of another actor - would have been a fantastic character.
Why do you dislike Robert Beltran?

(I am not sure I did this quoting/copying thing right, hopefully it shows properly ...)

I don't get that either. I had never heard of Beltran before but I thought he was a great choice for Chakotay. I wish he had done more TV/movies after that.

As to gender roles, I am not one to obsess about them too much myself but we certainly still have quite a ways to go before there is true equality. I have spent enough time in industries that are still very male dominated and macho. It is still really hard for women to succeed there past a certain point when competing with all the Alpha males. Having said that, I wouldn't want to be a non-Alpha male there either. It is refreshing to see a capable, intelligent man who doesn't need to establish his dominance/alpha-type personality at every turn.

I don't like boxing either, but then, any Chakotay episode is an episode worth watching :-)

Much is wrong with how Chakotay was written, he deserved so much better, more character development, more episodes, more screen time, a real tribe with some real history and spirituality - and, of course, the "girl" (Kathryn, not Seven).

 

[Katinka]

Why do you dislike Robert Beltran?


And, by the way: I didn't like the episode where Chakotay was boxing. I hat this kind of sports....
I don't dislike Robert Beltran, I just have seen more emotion out of a 2x4. (That's a piece of lumber)

Ok, granted during the last seasons he fell pretty flat, disenchantment with the whole thing etc., but earlier on, I disagree. He is subtle, which isn't wooden/emotionless, which doesn't make him a bad actor and fits Chakotay's character (at least as I see it). He can convey a lot with little drama, I like that. Also, I think I have stated that somewhere else but it is worth repeating, the man has the most disarming smile between here and the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Chuckles does indeed have a nice smile, I'll grant you that.

 

[Katinka]

Chuckles does indeed have a nice smile, I'll grant you that.

well, that's something

I'll grant you that a otherwise level-headed, highly educated grown-up (I like to think of myself as a mostly grown up) shouldn't spend that much time obsessing over the smile of some fictional figure (or, indeed, the actor who played that fictional figure 20 years ago) and should get back to work (but how much fun is that???)

 

[hux]

My problem with Chakotay is that he never came across as anything more than a token Maquis gesture. I didn't feel that Janeway genuinely saw him as second in command and when push came to shove, she confided in Tuvok far more as her second in command. Chakotay seemed to acknowledge this himself and accepted his limited influence on her. I think the events of Scorpion confirmed this for him -- she simply wasn't interested in listening to him.

We see again in Equinox that he knows he has very little power on the ship and he just wasn't willing to challenge her -- why bother? Even when she completely lost the plot, he knew it was pretty pointless.

Picard never gave Riker a reason to question his decisions (except in that episode where Picard was replaced and to be fair, Riker did question him). Janeway gave Chakotay quite a few reasons to but he has no real influence and he knows it. I think he ultimately saw Janeway as rather out of her depth.

Part of the problem was the whole Maquis thing. He was part of that and unfortunately, the writers lost all interest in it which reduced him to... other guy on bridge.

As for Beltran, I think he's very likeable but he clearly lost interest in the material. Given that he was sidelined after Seven's arrival, I don't blame him.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Star Trek has always had trouble portraying a realistic command team dynamic.

Deep Space Nine did the best job of any series, but that was primarily due to the fact that they spent several seasons depicting a war, the kind of thing that the quasi-military command structure of Starfleet is best suited for. The utopian adventures of Voyager, E-D, and E-original strained the notion of a naval command structure, as their stories were often better suited for a collegial cooperative team approach, not a top-down command structure.

 

[Lynx]

well, that's something

I'll grant you that a otherwise level-headed, highly educated grown-up (I like to think of myself as a mostly grown up) shouldn't spend that much time obsessing over the smile of some fictional figure (or, indeed, the actor who played that fictional figure 20 years ago) and should get back to work (but how much fun is that???)

It's not fun at all.

People need some harmless obsessions in order to cope with the often boring life in "the gray universe" (as a relative of mine used to call the real word compared to the Startrek Universe).

Or as Rolling Stones are singing in "Ruby Tuesday": "Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind".

 

[Lynx]

My problem with Chakotay is that he never came across as anything more than a token Maquis gesture. I didn't feel that Janeway genuinely saw him as second in command and when push came to shove, she confided in Tuvok far more as her second in command. Chakotay seemed to acknowledge this himself and accepted his limited influence on her. I think the events of Scorpion confirmed this for him -- she simply wasn't interested in listening to him.

We see again in Equinox that he knows he has very little power on the ship and he just wasn't willing to challenge her -- why bother? Even when she completely lost the plot, he knew it was pretty pointless.

Picard never gave Riker a reason to question his decisions (except in that episode where Picard was replaced and to be fair, Riker did question him). Janeway gave Chakotay quite a few reasons to but he has no real influence and he knows it. I think he ultimately saw Janeway as rather out of her depth.

Part of the problem was the whole Maquis thing. He was part of that and unfortunately, the writers lost all interest in it which reduced him to... other guy on bridge.

As for Beltran, I think he's very likeable but he clearly lost interest in the material. Given that he was sidelined after Seven's arrival, I don't blame him.

I'll give you some points here, especially about Beltran losing interest. I would have reacted the same way if I had been Beltran.

Chakotay was great in the first three seasons. Then he was shoved aside just like the other characters, except for Seven, Janeway and The Doctor.

There's an old saying: "All roads lead to Rome".

It looks like all roads when it comes to the different problems and errors in Voyager leads to the same point: Bad writing, bad writers.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

Chakotay - in the hands of another actor - would have been a fantastic character.

I agree. He just lacked any sort of charisma, and he certainly never came across as the type of character he was supposed to be. Sure, a big part of that was the writer's fault, but even when he had the fuel available to him, he was just portrayed as another humdrum Federation officer rather than a redeemed freedom fighter.

 

[Katinka]

It's not fun at all.

People need some harmless obsessions in order to cope with the often boring life in "the gray universe" (as a relative of mine used to call the real word compared to the Startrek Universe).

Or as Rolling Stones are singing in "Ruby Tuesday": "Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind".

Thanks, Lynx. I was actually wondering whether I lost my mind already.
I like the expression "gray universe" sometimes life even in sunny California feels gray. Must be one of those days today and crawling my way through the Internet for an even more perfect picture of Chakotay smiling seems just what the EMH might order.

 

[Katinka]

My problem with Chakotay is that he never came across as anything more than a token Maquis gesture.

ok, but realistically the Marquis cause ceased to exist for them in any relevant way once the were in the DQ. They all became Marquis in the first place over a single issue, that issue, though probably still relevant from a philosophical point of view, had no practical relevance anymore.
Chakotay wasn't a rebel without a cause so he - and everybody else from the old team - did the only reasonable thing: give up their badass (i mean that in a good way) freedom fighter ways and become Starfleet. One could wish for more depth in depicting the struggle that must have been (for some more than others) but the outcome was inevitable. I mean, why keep fighting over something that is 70,000 light years away when there are practical problems to deal with. So a continued Marquis badass freedom fighter attitude (and here I mean that in a not so good way) would have been rather ludicrous.

I didn't feel that Janeway genuinely saw him as second in command and when push came to shove, she confided in Tuvok far more as her second in command.

This was mentioned before (or in some other thread) and I will watch out for this. I never saw this before but that can just be me. What I see is Chakotay always being there with Janeway, in the Ready Room, following her on and off the Bridge, accompanying her to social functions, having dinners etc. In Scorpion she tells him that she can't imagine a day without him - she must have talked to him every day (pretty much) for this to make sense and gotten value out of their interaction aside from the cute smile. My assumption is that they talked a lot and he shaped her opinions. However, when it comes to pointed one liners fit for the screen Tuvok is the better person to deliver them in his dry Vulcan ways.
Granted we see conflict between them which is to be expected and much more interesting for the episode than showing them having yet another dinner together talking about repair schedules or whatever they talk about.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

(This is the first thread I am starting. I am actually a little nervous about posting it. Take a stab at it, I am curious about the feedback, just hope I won't come away feeling like a total fool)

I have had this little pet theory of mine for a bit and I am putting it out here so that you all can take a whack at it. I am under no illusion that this is not a completely biased take born from the desire to turn Chakotay into a hero, albeit a quiet one, because he is just so damn hot.
So here it goes.
Mulgrew wanted Janeway to be a role model for women and I think she did a good job at it. However, the real role model in my mind is Chakotay.

(okay, I can basically hear the collective groan of the Chakotay critics but let this girl have some fun)

Chakotay not only let Janeway be the captain, he supported her, was loyal to her and more than once swallowed his pride of that I am sure. He defended her decisions, even when he would have decided otherwise – everything a good XO should do.
I am not a great Next Gen fan and haven’t seen them all but I don’t recall Riker organizing mutinies on a regular basis and people don’t call him a yesman for that, as they frequently do with poor Chakotay.

Chakotay was something for Janeway, that is still rare today and was even rarer 20 years ago: a man supporting a strong woman and playing second fiddle without questioning her at every turn and organizing insurrections every time they have a different opinion. He is the man standing behind the strong woman. Women have done that for men for, like, forever, why can’t a guy do that for a woman without being called a weakling?

He could have been more of a badass and many people seem to think that would have been appealing and more becoming to a Marquis and Angry Warrior. But he wasn’t an angry warrior anymore, he had found a balance in his life and made a promise to be her loyal XO. He kept that, but that does not make him weak or a yes-man. This makes him a role model in my mind, a man who has conquered his ego enough not to go to battle every time he doesn’t get his way. A man who has the strength to accept that he doesn’t always have the last word and who does not feel emasculated by it. That is real strength, not sable rattling, arrogance and slamming fists on random available surfaces.
In all of that he doesn’t lose his own opinions, he just knows to step back when doing his job as XO. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t have strong convictions and ideals he would passionately argue and defend.
If more men could behave that way, there would be a lot more women in positions of power.

I guess that his spirituality helped him to attain this balance. I am not a very spiritual person myself so this part is hard for me to understand but admire the result, however it was achieved. I like his quiet, unassuming strength, his loyalty and his calmness, which some people refer to as wooden.

He is exactly the man he needed to be to let Janeway be a role model for women whether he was deliberately written that way (highly doubtful) or not. It is hard to step up to the plate as a woman but I am convinced it is equally hard and honorable to step back as a man in a society that still seems to expect that the guy leads the way and the woman follows behind supporting him.

So, there you have it, my defense of Chakotay, the real role model of Voyager for a more modern understanding of gender roles.

I like Janeway and Chakotay, just like you. But I do not think Janeway is a great role model. Should a good role model attach a Tractor Beam on a neutral vessel (in Equinox Part 2) which you have no quarrel with? That is the Star Trek equivalent of towing a random car for no reason. That is not good. Tuvok is a role model (being a cool, calculated, logical, calm, Security man) Torres is (being a great smart engineer). Male and Female role models.

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Catarina]

I didn't look towards Janeway as a role model. she was all over the place. I like her bravery at times, her nurturing but that's where it stopped. I looked to Chakotay and was devastated how flat he was in the end.

 

[Katinka]

I am not sure Janeway's actions in many cases qualify her as a role model since there are so many inconsistencies and frankly questionable decisions (I can count anymore how often my son and I sit in front of the TV and yell "don't beam that random alien onboard!!!"). However, being the first female starship captain did create a role model showing girls that they can be more then eye candy, communications officers and counselors. As such, she was a role model (now, had she just occasionally not beamed those random aliens on board ...). B'Elanna as well, actually.

I looked to Chakotay and was devastated how flat he was in the end.

I, sadly, have to agree with that. I am in mid- season 5 of the rewatch (after many many years) and was hoping against hope that things weren't as bleak as everybody said for poor Chakotay. Alas, they are. Still carrying his torch, it wasn't his fault