The Prometheus - rather unnecessary bling

[TiberiusMaximus]

A better analogy would be that of a fire soldier who's arms and legs can break off and attack and how unneccesary that is.

Unnecessary, but hilarious.

(or transforms you into mutant newts)

What are you talking about??? Nothing that ridiculous has ever happened on Trek. Never ever ever. Ever.

 

[The Badger]

That is an interesting point.

Though with warp drive, I always think its more about endurance rather than speed. Seeing as how warp 10 is "unattainable" (or transforms you into mutant newts) unless the scale is changed, the ship that can hit and maintain warp 9.9 for longer would be better.

But thats just my thoughts.

Well, according to the 'Starship Spotter' (a non cannon source, I'll admit), the Prometheus has a sustainable cruising speed of warp nine, as compared to warp six for an Intrepid class.

I rather think the multiple warp systems must have something to do with this. Not just several warp nacelles, but more power from more warp cores (it has been suggested that the Prometheus has only one warp core, that somehow splits into three for separated flight mode. However there's nothing from the show itself to support that). So it seems to me to be quite plausible that the Prometheus was designed to be a long range rapid response unit. Indeed, the whole MVAM concept might not have been the main point of the design at all.

Incidentally, does anyone have a link to the dimensions of the ship, both in combined and separated form? I was wondering how it compares to other fleet ships.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

Don't forget that, in addition to MVAM, the Prometheus is also said to be faster than anything else in the Fleet. Perhaps the multiple warp systems are responsible for this, and to build a single ship with that speed would require three sets of engines anyway.

Perhaps then, rather than one ship that can split into three, the Prometheus can be seen as three ships that can combine into one. In effect, a small fleet that can join together for exceptional speed and range, making it ideal for rapid response to emerging situations.

Which sounds a bit like Power rangers, combining all the Zords makes them more powerful.

Sounds more like the Species 8472 version of doing things doesn't it?
Several powerful small ships, combine them and, whoops, bye bye planet.

Though I am imagining a cool modification to the defiant class that allows them to link together aft to aft and become a big ball of pulse phasing fury!

 

[N1N]

Sorry people, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of you on this forum about MVAM.

The main argument seems to be that the federation could just create three smaller ships (Nova, Sabre, Defiant etc...) to replace the Prometheus class for better results.

Does this really make sense?

Firstly, the intended role of the Prometheus class is 'Deep Space Tactical Assignments'. Is it really feasible for the federation to send three ships on deep space assignment? Think about this scenario for a moment. Starfleet creates 10 Prometheus class ships , that means you would need 30 replacement ships to swap out for the Prometheus class.

Forgetting that smaller ships should be easier to produce, as opposed to larger vessels (Intrepid class to Galaxy class), they still need to be fully crewed, and three would have to be made. Logistically it's a very bad idea.

This quote from ST:Insurrection points out that everyone in the Alpha Quadrant can smell the blood in the water, and knows that the federation is in a very weak position power & influence wise.

"Federation support, Federation procedures, Federation rules–" Ru'afo balks. "Look in the mirror, Admiral! The Federation is old. In the last twenty four months, it's been challenged by every major power in the quadrant – the Borg, the Cardassians, the Dominion – they all smell the scent of death on the Federation.

Starfleet is in no shape or form to be spreading itself thin, and that is perhaps one of the greatest arguments for the Prometheus class.

On another note, I think it's generally accepted that you don't send small vessels on deep space missions. Memory-alpha considers deep space missions as 'a term used to describe missions into uncharted areas of space.'Which essentially means that these ships operate outside of federation space. I'm of the mind that you either 'GO HARD, or GO HOME' which is probably why you see more Galaxy, Nebula and Sovereign classes in deep space doing exploration, rather than Intrepid, Defiant and Nova classes.

Sorry for all the incoherent babble, but the last thing I wish to point out is that the USS Equinox & Voyager, are prime examples of why you don't send small ships in to deep space with no backup or support.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sorry people, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of you on this forum about MVAM.

The main argument seems to be that the federation could just create three smaller ships (Nova, Sabre, Defiant etc...) to replace the Prometheus class for better results.

Does this really make sense?

Yes, it does. Because instead of trying to build a complicated ship that can split into three smaller vessels that require close coordination and ultra-precise computer control in order to work properly, why not simply send three vessels? It's not that hard a concept.

 

[N1N]

Sorry people, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of you on this forum about MVAM.

The main argument seems to be that the federation could just create three smaller ships (Nova, Sabre, Defiant etc...) to replace the Prometheus class for better results.

Does this really make sense?

Yes, it does. Because instead of trying to build a complicated ship that can split into three smaller vessels that require close coordination and ultra-precise computer control in order to work properly, why not simply send three vessels? It's not that hard a concept.

Well there are a lot of assumptions in that statement you made. Who said that the ship is complicated to build? Sure it has more moving parts than a ship of similar size, but that is by design. The USS Prometheus separated, and integrated again DURING battle with no problems.

"Close coordination, and ultra-precise computer control"? Well the Prometheus does have three computer cores which handle all the maneuvers, and automation. Clearly this would have been a problem if it was a single computer core, but it isn't, and obviously does not seem to be a problem the Prometheus suffers from.

You are right though, this is not hard concept which makes it all the more puzzling that you don't understand.

Put simply, the federation creating three ships to perform the same functions of one ship is a misuse of resources. Especially considering the Prometheus's ship role.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sorry people, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of you on this forum about MVAM.

The main argument seems to be that the federation could just create three smaller ships (Nova, Sabre, Defiant etc...) to replace the Prometheus class for better results.

Does this really make sense?

Yes, it does. Because instead of trying to build a complicated ship that can split into three smaller vessels that require close coordination and ultra-precise computer control in order to work properly, why not simply send three vessels? It's not that hard a concept.

Well there are a lot of assumptions in that statement you made. Who said that the ship is complicated to build?

That has to be a joke, but it's probably denial on your part.

Sure it has more moving parts than a ship of similar size, but that is by design. The USS Prometheus separated, and integrated again DURING battle with no problems.

Or one could just not have to do that in the first place.

"Close coordination, and ultra-precise computer control"? Well the Prometheus does have three computer cores which handle all the maneuvers, and automation. Clearly this would have been a problem if it was a single computer core, but it isn't, and obviously does not seem to be a problem the Prometheus suffers from.

I don't buy that for a second and I don't think you don't either. For the Prometheus to carry out MVAM, it requires all three computer cores to be in perfect synch with one another. It's not three totally independent starships, but rather one starship separated into three warp-capable components which must work together. In fact, I believe the three components can't get too far apart from one another during MVAM.

You are right though, this is not hard concept which makes it all the more puzzling that you don't understand.

Perhaps if you pay attention, you'd realize it's not a case of me not understanding something.

Put simply, the federation creating three ships to perform the same functions of one ship is a misuse of resources. Especially considering the Prometheus's ship role.

Put simply, the Federation creating one big ship that can split itself into three smaller ones instead of just building three smaller ones is a misuse of resources. It's a parlor trick and nothing more. The effectiveness of the MVAM is really the same as one larger ship--like the Enterprise--in action, but requires more effort.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Here's a brilliant idea. Why don't Star Fleet design a ship that can diffuse itself into three hundred and seventy nine trillion pieces? Imagine the awesome power than can be unleashed with three hundred and seventy nine trillion vectors all attacking at the same time (forgetting for the moment that a vector is a mathematical construct not a thing that exists)

There might be a problem with life support systems when the ship goes molecular but Star Fleet are clever and they can work a way around it.

 

[exodus]

I have yet to see any ship on Trek that can fire on multiple targets at once.
The Prometheus is tactically sound because it can take out any enemy ships propulsion, communications and weapons array simultaneously leaving an enemy ship dead in the water. It also stacks the odds 3 to 1 in Stafleets favor of a successful outcome in battle.
Normally it would take multiple passes by other ships to pull off this type of attack. While the Prometheus are 3 ships that are tactically coordinated to act as one and to hit all vital areas of an enemy ship in one swift strike. This allows smaller ships like the Defiant class to take out other fighters while allowing a ship like the Prometheus to go in for a fatal blow.

It also allows two of the vessels to bring down a ships shields faster, while the third can be used to beam over a boarding party.

 

[Captain_Nick]

If three to one is good, three hundred and seven nine trillion to one is better!

 

[exodus]

If three to one is good, three hundred and seven nine trillion to one is better!

Been there, done that.
They were called the Swarm.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I have yet to see any ship on Trek that can fire on multiple targets at once.

Then that must include the Prometheus. It works by concentrating fire on one target (vessel) at a time.

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

 

[T'Girl]

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

In a way we did. In The Best of Both Worlds, during the rescue of Picard, the Enterprise split the saucer from the drive section and sent out a large shuttle. Coordinating the efforts of these three separate vessels, the crew accomplished what a single hull could not have.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

In a way we did. In The Best of Both Worlds, during the rescue of Picard, the Enterprise split the saucer from the drive section and sent out a large shuttle. Coordinating the efforts of these three separate vessels, the crew accomplished what a single hull could not have.

During "Best of Both Worlds," the saucer acted as merely as a diversion with a harmless light show. And any ship can send out a shuttlecraft for a rescue mission.

 

[N1N]

I have yet to see any ship on Trek that can fire on multiple targets at once.

Then that must include the Prometheus. It works by concentrating fire on one target (vessel) at a time.

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

While MVAM works best when used to outnumber, outmaneuver, and out gun a single opponent. There is nothing saying that is the only situation in which to use the system.

Also all federation ships with multiple phaser arrays(pretty much all fed ships) can fire on multiple targets, just look at the battle between USS Voyager, and the Vaadwaur.

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

In a way we did. In The Best of Both Worlds, during the rescue of Picard, the Enterprise split the saucer from the drive section and sent out a large shuttle. Coordinating the efforts of these three separate vessels, the crew accomplished what a single hull could not have.

During "Best of Both Worlds," the saucer acted as merely as a diversion with a harmless light show. And any ship can send out a shuttlecraft for a rescue mission.

Yes the saucer acted as a diversion. Riker knew that the borg would not perceive the saucer section as a threat as it fired it's antimatter spread. This allowed the shuttle to fly undetected. Riker could not have pulled his strategy off without a ship that could not separate.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Why do you buy into the misuse of the english language like that?

How are the phasers 'arrays'? What are they arrays of?

 

[N1N]

Why do you buy into the misuse of the english language like that?

How are the phasers 'arrays'? What are they arrays of?

What are you talking about grammar nazi?

A phaser array, is the term for a collection of phaser emitters. A federation starship generally has more than one phaser array. So it can be said to have multiple phaser arrays(plural). So I don't see what the problem is here.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I have yet to see any ship on Trek that can fire on multiple targets at once.

Then that must include the Prometheus. It works by concentrating fire on one target (vessel) at a time.

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

While MVAM works best when used to outnumber, outmaneuver, and out gun a single opponent. There is nothing saying that is the only situation in which to use the system.

There's nothing to suggest otherwise, truth be told. In fact, the only apparent value of the MVAM is to give a smaller ship the punch of a larger one (we've seen the Enterprise take out single ships before).

Also all federation ships with multiple phaser arrays(pretty much all fed ships) can fire on multiple targets, just look at the battle between USS Voyager, and the Vaadwaur.

Exactly my point, really. Doesn't require the Voyager to split into smaller ships to do that too.

In a way we did. In The Best of Both Worlds, during the rescue of Picard, the Enterprise split the saucer from the drive section and sent out a large shuttle. Coordinating the efforts of these three separate vessels, the crew accomplished what a single hull could not have.

During "Best of Both Worlds," the saucer acted as merely as a diversion with a harmless light show. And any ship can send out a shuttlecraft for a rescue mission.

Yes the saucer acted as a diversion. Riker knew that the borg would not perceive the saucer section as a threat as it fired it's antimatter spread. This allowed the shuttle to fly undetected. Riker could not have pulled his strategy off without a ship that could not separate.

The antimatter spread served solely as a smokescreen for the shuttle to do its thing. Otherwise, it was a one-time only tactic specifically designed to catch Picard (as Locutus) off-guard because as a Starfleet captain, he was trained to ignore the saucer. Someone else--like a non-Starfleet captain--wouldn't have done so. Riker was counting solely on Picard being predictable to make it work.

 

[N1N]

Then that must include the Prometheus. It works by concentrating fire on one target (vessel) at a time.

Of course, we've also seen the Enterprise do that too, but without having to split into three parts.

While MVAM works best when used to outnumber, outmaneuver, and out gun a single opponent. There is nothing saying that is the only situation in which to use the system.

There's nothing to suggest otherwise. In fact, the only apparent value of the MVAM is to give a smaller ship the punch of a larger one.

Exactly my point, really. Doesn't require the Voyager to split into smaller ships to do that too.

Exactly my point, MVAM allows the prometheus to bring more weapons, increases maneuverability, and spreads the damage received between the three sections. In a situation where there is no backup or support.

Your right Voyager didn't need to split to deal it's damage to the enemy, however being a single ship allowed the Vaadwaur to concentrate all it's firepower on a single target. Lets face it, Voyager barely made it off the planet. If the crew had not got help when it did from the Turei, they probably would have been destroyed.

During "Best of Both Worlds," the saucer acted as merely as a diversion with a harmless light show. And any ship can send out a shuttlecraft for a rescue mission.

Yes the saucer acted as a diversion. Riker knew that the borg would not perceive the saucer section as a threat as it fired it's antimatter spread. This allowed the shuttle to fly undetected. Riker could not have pulled his strategy off without a ship that could not separate.

The antimatter spread served solely as a smokescreen for the shuttle to do its thing. Otherwise, it was a one-time only tactic specifically designed to catch Picard (as Locutus) off-guard because as a Starfleet captain he was trained to ignore the saucer. Someone else--like a non-Starfleet captain--wouldn't have done so. Riker was counting solely on Picard to make it work.

Yes the saucer section provided the smoke screen, however this tactic could not work while it was connected to the drive section. I also agree with you that it was a one time tactic. Fool the Borg once shame on you, fool them twice shame on them!
I don't agree that Picard was trained to ignore his ship. The Borg however will ignore anything they don't perceive as a threat or of any use. Which is why the plan worked in the first place.

 

[C.E. Evans]

While MVAM works best when used to outnumber, outmaneuver, and out gun a single opponent. There is nothing saying that is the only situation in which to use the system.

There's nothing to suggest otherwise. In fact, the only apparent value of the MVAM is to give a smaller ship the punch of a larger one.

Exactly my point, really. Doesn't require the Voyager to split into smaller ships to do that too.

Exactly my point, MVAM allows the prometheus to bring more weapons, increases maneuverability, and spreads the damage received between the three sections. In a situation where there is no backup or support.

But a single starship can do that too without having to split into three sections. We've seen it done before.

Your right Voyager didn't need to split to deal it's damage to the enemy, however being a single ship allowed the Vaadwaur to concentrate all it's firepower on a single target. Lets face it, Voyager barely made it off the planet. If the crew had not got help when it did from the Turei, they probably would have been destroyed.

The same was also true of the Prometheus. It was surrounded by three Romulan warbirds and needed backup from other Starfleet vessels in order to escape. It could only handle one ship at a time in MVAM.

During "Best of Both Worlds," the saucer acted as merely as a diversion with a harmless light show. And any ship can send out a shuttlecraft for a rescue mission.

Yes the saucer acted as a diversion. Riker knew that the borg would not perceive the saucer section as a threat as it fired it's antimatter spread. This allowed the shuttle to fly undetected. Riker could not have pulled his strategy off without a ship that could not separate.

The antimatter spread served solely as a smokescreen for the shuttle to do its thing. Otherwise, it was a one-time only tactic specifically designed to catch Picard (as Locutus) off-guard because as a Starfleet captain he was trained to ignore the saucer. Someone else--like a non-Starfleet captain--wouldn't have done so. Riker was counting solely on Picard to make it work.

Yes the saucer section provided the smoke screen, however this tactic could not work while it was connected to the drive section.

I don't think it was absolutely necessary to separate the saucer section, but it did catch Picard/Locutus off-guard because he wasn't expecting the saucer to be involved.

I also agree with you that it was a one time tactic. Fool the Borg once shame on you, fool them twice shame on them!

I don't agree that Picard was trained to ignore his ship. The Borg however will ignore anything they don't perceive as a threat or of any use. Which is why the plan worked in the first place.

I think it worked because Riker was depending on Picard going by the book in regards to the Enterprise and Riker tossed that book out the window.