The Prime Universe....no more.

[The rapture]

I have seen on several fan sites the idea that the "prime universe" is not gone and that this is an alternate universe etc. I am sorry but I am not buying that. Spock clearly tells Kirk in the mind meld that he is from the future. On the bridge Spock says that Nero changed the time line after he came from the future and destroyed the Kelvin. Uhara even says "an alternate reality" not "universe". This is considered the new time line and all that happened before is now lost. If someone went back in time and killed Hilter the future that they know is now lost. You could clearly see old Spock developing new memories when Kirk is made Captain.

So this movie clearly wipes out TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Only leaving ENT.
Which is exactly what Abrams and crew wanted to do.

I still find it ridiculous that Spock after watching Vulcan get destroyed does not in any way shape or form trying to repair the time line. He even tells Kirk that he is "emotional" about the destruction. Come on man! He should of went to the Guardian and gone back to the future and stop Nero or better yet stopping the destruction of Romulus. Major plot hole that makes the story seem poorly contrived.

 

[Uncle Pennybags]

I still find it ridiculous that Spock after watching Vulcan get destroyed does not in any way shape or form trying to repair the time line. He even tells Kirk that he is "emotional" about the destruction. Come on man! He should of went to the Guardian and gone back to the future and stop Nero or better yet stopping the destruction of Romulus. Major plot hole that makes the story seem poorly contrived.

Of course this also is an argument against your idea that the Prime Universe is "gone".

There is nothing preventing Spock, Kirk, or anybody else at any other point in time from going back (or forward) and preventing Nero from coming back in time, thereby restoring the Prime Universe.

Nothing is set in stone. The Prime Universe's existance, or lack thereof, is not excluded from that. Its just the nature of time travel stories.

 

[jbrinegar]

Ive always grumbled about a reset button, so Im glad they are doing away with it. Keep the destruction there so we can see how it affects the characters.

Guardian of forever? JJ is trying to make this accessible to a broader audience which he accomplished. The talking donut saving the day sounds too fanboyish and doesnt fit in with what hes going for.

I choose to believe in two universes, similar to Marvle or DC. I have all the "Prime" universes on dvd and can watch them when I want. The last movie they tried to keep in universe was a failure. I wanted change, new creative voices running the franchise, and I got what I asked for. I am thrilled with the results.

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

I have seen on several fan sites the idea that the "prime universe" is not gone and that this is an alternate universe etc. I am sorry but I am not buying that. Spock clearly tells Kirk in the mind meld that he is from the future. On the bridge Spock says that Nero changed the time line after he came from the future and destroyed the Kelvin. Uhara even says "an alternate reality" not "universe". This is considered the new time line and all that happened before is now lost. If someone went back in time and killed Hilter the future that they know is now lost. You could clearly see old Spock developing new memories when Kirk is made Captain.

So this movie clearly wipes out TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Only leaving ENT.
Which is exactly what Abrams and crew wanted to do.

I still find it ridiculous that Spock after watching Vulcan get destroyed does not in any way shape or form trying to repair the time line. He even tells Kirk that he is "emotional" about the destruction. Come on man! He should of went to the Guardian and gone back to the future and stop Nero or better yet stopping the destruction of Romulus. Major plot hole that makes the story seem poorly contrived.

You know, I totally empathize with your position. I'm still kind of adjusting to the fact that Vulcan has been destroyed myself!

But look at it in terms of the whole "parallel universe" phenomenon we saw in the Next Generation episode Parallels, where Worf was passing through a whole bunch of alternate universes. And think back on the Original Series episode Mirror, Mirror and its sequels/prequels. In the case of Parallels, an argument can certainly be made that those aren't necessarily parallel universes Worf's dealing with, they're parallel timelines! And also remember, it wasn't just any of the usual means of time travel that we've seen used before, Spock and Nero passed through an artificially-generated quantum singularity (meaning a black hole)! You never really know just how something like this will affect things...

(Incidentally, it's kind of funny how Parallels was written by none other than Brannon Braga! And I think that episode was one of the inspirations behind the new film's writers' and director's decision to create a whole new timeline, as well as their whole rationalization behind it. It's really true: All roads do indeed lead back to Brannon Braga! So if you don't like the new film, here's yet something else to lay at the poor guy's feet! )

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Hasn't the whole "the original timeline is gone" thing already been discussed to death and proven to be false and that the original timeline does still exist? I've honestly lost all energy when it comes to this discussion again. We've got numerous threads in this forum that explain how time travel works and how it creates an alternate universe in order to prevent the whole grandfather paradox thing.

 

[The rapture]

The prime universe is gone. The only person that is/was aware of it was Spock and those that he told. Spock should of at the end of the movie instead of helping set up a new colony for surviving Vulcans but instead he should of been trying to devise a way to repair the time line. By not doing so he alters the future and allows the destruction of his home planet plus 6 billion Vulcans.

When Pike is questioned by Nero he says he "prevented genocide" by destroying Vulcan. Pike tells him that he is "blaming the Federation for something that hasn't happened". Nero later says "my purpose is not to avoid the destruction of the home I love but to make sure but to create a Romulus that is free to exist without the Federation". Only they are the ones worth saving.

Since the time line was not repaired, the prime universe is gone.

So Nero in is deluded way is affecting his future by destroying Vulcan and Earth. So why people say that this new movie is an alternate is incorrect. The villain is trying to alter "the future"....his future.

 

[starbuck]

I have seen on several fan sites the idea that the "prime universe" is not gone and that this is an alternate universe etc. I am sorry but I am not buying that. Spock clearly tells Kirk in the mind meld that he is from the future. On the bridge Spock says that Nero changed the time line after he came from the future and destroyed the Kelvin. Uhara even says "an alternate reality" not "universe". This is considered the new time line and all that happened before is now lost. If someone went back in time and killed Hilter the future that they know is now lost. You could clearly see old Spock developing new memories when Kirk is made Captain.

So this movie clearly wipes out TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Only leaving ENT.
Which is exactly what Abrams and crew wanted to do.

I still find it ridiculous that Spock after watching Vulcan get destroyed does not in any way shape or form trying to repair the time line. He even tells Kirk that he is "emotional" about the destruction. Come on man! He should of went to the Guardian and gone back to the future and stop Nero or better yet stopping the destruction of Romulus. Major plot hole that makes the story seem poorly contrived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallels_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

 

[anothertrekfan]

This debate will go on forever. You either accept it as an alternate reality or you don't. In my opinion, the best way to explain this movie while adhering to the established rules of time travel used in Trek is that the black hole transported them back through time into another dimension or "reality", thereby preserving the established canon. I believe this so much that I used it in my signature... Either way, this movie has just cured a choking franchise and I'm grateful for Paramount and JJ for making this such a great film!

 

[theFirebottle]

The writers have stated repeatedly that time is no longer linear in the Trek paradigm. There's no such thing as going back and "fixing" things. All that will do is branch off another timeline. The more you go back, the more timelines get spawned.

Your dvds are not going to turn into vapor.


Also: There are about as many "established rules" about time travel in Star Trek "canon" as there are episodes that incorporate time travel as a plot component. Trek is about as consistent about time travel as it is about whether Earth humans use money or not (DS9 and Picard say no, TOS and films say yes). That is, NOT CONSISTENT AT ALL.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I have seen on several fan sites the idea that the "prime universe" is not gone and that this is an alternate universe etc. I am sorry but I am not buying that. Spock clearly tells Kirk in the mind meld that he is from the future. On the bridge Spock says that Nero changed the time line after he came from the future and destroyed the Kelvin. Uhara even says "an alternate reality" not "universe". This is considered the new time line and all that happened before is now lost. If someone went back in time and killed Hilter the future that they know is now lost. You could clearly see old Spock developing new memories when Kirk is made Captain.

It really amazes me that people are still trying to beat this dead horse, arguing over semantics and word choice, and somehow failing to grasp the concept of multiple universes. I'm beginning to understand what it must have been like to argue with members of the Flat Earth society.

I still find it ridiculous that Spock after watching Vulcan get destroyed does not in any way shape or form trying to repair the time line. He even tells Kirk that he is "emotional" about the destruction. Come on man! He should of went to the Guardian and gone back to the future and stop Nero or better yet stopping the destruction of Romulus. Major plot hole that makes the story seem poorly contrived.

You could say the same thing about every negative event that has ever occurred in the Trek universe, subsequent to the events of "City on the Edge of Forever." You could go back and try to correct every massacre, every horrible crime, every tragic accident, and you're an amoral pig if you don't at least try, right? Except of course, it quickly becomes a narrative nightmare that short-circuits any plot. IMO, single-timeline time travel is simplistic and ultimately nonsencial. Quantum branching/alternate universe time travel eliminates all these paradoxes in a way that is both narratively and logically satisfying.

 

[The rapture]

Please!! I have heard this "make it accessible to a new audience" line way to long. Star Trek has been on TV for 40 years. A total of 10 movies and 5 series. It has been broadcasted daily around the world. People today buy DVDs of entire TV shows. They have access to the internet etc. I am sorry but if someone wanted to get into Trek it is pretty easy to do.

Abrams has wiped away all of TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

The idea that you still "owne it on DVD" is silly. All that you now know of Trek is now gone. For those that say the writers had too many "obsticles" I say "Manny Coto" didn't have a problem with it for the last season of ENT (which was the best of that series). So for all the people that followed Trek, you just got kicked in the stomach. You will never see another story/movie about previous Trek again. To sit back and say "we can see Khan again" in the next movie or something from the TOS series is pretty limited thinking. I mean is that it? Is Trek done? Now we just rehash the last 40 years again with minor changes? The idea of "new adventures" is basically over.

As for "Marvel and DC". Sorry but that is not a valid example. It is two different companies which have set up their own stories/characters. Just as you do not hear "Darth Vader" say "damn you Kirk".

 

[The rapture]

This is not a parallel universe. They went back in time and changed it to where the future has been altered. You fail to realize that Abrams did not want to go into that direction and just made it that simple "Nero from the future, goes back in time and alters the future". It is that simple. The Prime Universe has been destroyed.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So this movie clearly wipes out TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Only leaving ENT.
Which is exactly what Abrams and crew wanted to do.

I'm cool with that. I've got all the old stuff I want on DVD and tapes, and can get more later.

The idea of "new adventures" is basically over.

TPTB hadn't come up with anything really new in decades. Maybe these folks will innovate more - well, in some ways they already have.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

No.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

I think the distinction between whether this is an "alternate reality", "alternate timeline", "parallel universe", etc. is a distinction that exists only within the context of the story -- and given the fact that my TOS, TNG, VOY, and DS9 DVDs, and shelves of books on my bookcase still exist, that distinction becomes meaningless outside of the story in our real life universe -- and I think that says a lot about the people fretting over this.

I swear the writers should have just rebooted this without the time travel/alternate reality/parallel universe business and not try to appease these "fans."

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

If the Prime Universe was gone.... then Nero and Prime Spock would not be able to come back in time at all, since they are both from the Prime Timeline.

The only reason this new timeline exists is because people from the Prime Universe came back in time and changed things.


FURTHERMORE....

If you follow this chain events... you'll see...

IF there is no Prime Timeline........then there is No Nero and Narada coming back in time, thus no Kelvin destruction........... and if there's no Kelvin destruction in this "new" timeline, then guess what?

Things don't branch off and change... without the destruction of the Kelvin, this "new" timeline ends up being.... wait for it.... PRIME TIMELINE all over again!

The new movie's timeline NEEDS the Prime Timeline simply TO EXIST. Prime Universe has to exist, there is no situation in which it doesn't.

Hence, both universes exist.

 

[The rapture]

Taking Trek backwards was not the way to go. We are not subjected to rehashing TOS episode ideas now???? Sad. You can now take your Trek DVDs and box them in the attic seeing how there will be no more stories to add to it.

 

[cmdrbolly]

This is not a parallel universe. They went back in time and changed it to where the future has been altered. You fail to realize that Abrams did not want to go into that direction and just made it that simple "Nero from the future, goes back in time and alters the future". It is that simple. The Prime Universe has been destroyed.

God, I hope so, if it'll mean the end of all this bullshit whingeing.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

You forced my hand:

LINK

 

[Peter the Younger]

Taking Trek backwards was not the way to go. We are not subjected to rehashing TOS episode ideas now???? Sad. You can now take your Trek DVDs and box them in the attic seeing how there will be no more stories to add to it.

Sure. You can burn them on your front lawn, throw in mutilated pictures of J.J. Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman and watch them burn, ask your Congressional Rep to introduce a bill declaring the new film non-canon, picket the Paramount studios with signs saying "You destroyed my Star Trek!" Knock yourself out.