[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ZbVk_Dh9E[/yt]
The Prime Directive Talk - By sfdebris
- Thread starter USS Excelsior
- Start date
Um, while I agree with most of the points of this video, I'd like to point out that it's attack on the PD and the reasoning used for the attack is hardly original or new in Trek fandom. The absurdities of the PD(or at least its modern Trek interpretation) have been pointed out before in threads here, as well as in other online online Trek review sites, and even in some of the books.
And I'd agree with Yarn except that given some of the ridiculous pro-PD arguments I've seen from some members here, I doubt that it would do much good.
And I'd agree with Yarn except that given some of the ridiculous pro-PD arguments I've seen from some members here, I doubt that it would do much good.
They would avoid interfering in a society with a brutal dictatorship, and natural disasters as well even if there are no intelligent beings there.
If the dinosaurs were saved then that would prevent the rise of dominant mammals including apes. But then again saving them could have given rise to intelligent reptiles.
If the dinosaurs were saved then that would prevent the rise of dominant mammals including apes. But then again saving them could have given rise to intelligent reptiles.
Like anything else you do in life: you weigh the pros and cons and try to come up with an acceptable solution for everyone involved. But you don't just turn your back and act like its' the 'morally superior' thing to do.
Since the only real example of the PD being bad was in "Homeward", I'll stick by what I said before: There was no way to save that world's population except in a VERY small number, and no thought at all was raised to how they'd properly adapt to a totally alien biosphere, what would happen to indigenous life, etc. If they had undertaken such a massive operation it would've cost them years worth of time and millions of personnel which would negatively impact Starfleet's defensive capabilities as well as other missions like ferrying around medicines and such.
If it's some natural disaster, like the ones ANY civilization has suffered in the past like earthquakes and stuff, leave them be to stand up to adversity on their own instead of babying them. If it's war, it's their own damn fault.
If it's some natural disaster, like the ones ANY civilization has suffered in the past like earthquakes and stuff, leave them be to stand up to adversity on their own instead of babying them. If it's war, it's their own damn fault.
God... I've seen your arguments a hundred times on this board. And they just are irritatingly uneducated.
1. You forgot your 'slippery slope' argument: that if we help one race survive, then we have to go out and start seeking out dying civilizations. Guess if I save a guy drowning in a river then I have to go and start seeking out all people who might be drowning.
2. If you have the means, within realistic boundaries, to save a population or percentage thereof... you do it. You don't allow a child to starve because it might not be beneficial to you financially. And that's what these lesser species are in the grand scheme of things... children. Plus the fact that when a civilization dies you are losing something unique to the cosmos.
3. If you decide you don't want to save a race because it might cost you something. Then publicly say 'fuck 'em', don't hide behind the 'moral superiority' angle. Oh my... if we save them they might become the next Borg. Bull... shit...
1. You forgot your 'slippery slope' argument: that if we help one race survive, then we have to go out and start seeking out dying civilizations. Guess if I save a guy drowning in a river then I have to go and start seeking out all people who might be drowning.
2. If you have the means, within realistic boundaries, to save a population or percentage thereof... you do it. You don't allow a child to starve because it might not be beneficial to you financially. And that's what these lesser species are in the grand scheme of things... children. Plus the fact that when a civilization dies you are losing something unique to the cosmos.
3. If you decide you don't want to save a race because it might cost you something. Then publicly say 'fuck 'em', don't hide behind the 'moral superiority' angle. Oh my... if we save them they might become the next Borg. Bull... shit...
1) It's been used enough I didn't feel the need to reiterate. But yeah, if the Feds were willing to bend their policy towards pre-warp civilizations unaware of aliens to THAT extent then it may as well not exist at all. We know that these events do keep happening, and the sheer logistics and manpower for such a saving action would be enormous not to mention how long they'd have to remain under observation for proper resettlement/integration to their new surroundings. This would be a MASSIVE drain on Fed resources.
2) We/The Federation aren't the "Parents" of the various alien species out there, why should they be the ones to baby anyone who faces any adversity? A kid starving on the street is hardly the same thing as a civilization destroying itself through ineptitude or violence. A starving kid wouldn't have done that to himself/herself.
3) I'm sure McCoy thought the same thing when he save Edith Keeler. Thanks a lot for that one Doc!
2) We/The Federation aren't the "Parents" of the various alien species out there, why should they be the ones to baby anyone who faces any adversity? A kid starving on the street is hardly the same thing as a civilization destroying itself through ineptitude or violence. A starving kid wouldn't have done that to himself/herself.
3) I'm sure McCoy thought the same thing when he save Edith Keeler. Thanks a lot for that one Doc!
On McCoy... might want to go re-watch City on the Edge of Forever. He never did believe he went back in time.
On the rest, all I got to say is that you're quite the... humanitarian.
I do think some things, like nudging an asteroid to the side or keeping other aliens from secretly messing with an innocent planet are okay to intervene with. But stuff like saving them from their own wars, or natural disasters like Earthquakes and floods is just coddling folks too much.
At the end of the day... it's a judgment call. That should be handled on a case-by-case basis. But it shouldn't be legislated back in Paris that starship captains should never provide help to those in need based on whether they've developed warp drive. It's a completely arbitrary line based on a completely arbitrary development.
"Can we help these barbarians who have contracted a disease?","Sure they have warp drive."
"Can we help these peaceful people whose planet is shaking itself apart?","Ah... well... you see... no warp drive equals no help".
It's like a bad skit from MadTV. The Federation is essentially basing a cultures' maturity on a single technological development it has made.
"Can we help these barbarians who have contracted a disease?","Sure they have warp drive."
"Can we help these peaceful people whose planet is shaking itself apart?","Ah... well... you see... no warp drive equals no help".
It's like a bad skit from MadTV. The Federation is essentially basing a cultures' maturity on a single technological development it has made.
It's not just warp drive, that's just the "Well, they're going out there ANYWAYS so we better make contact now" threshold. The people in question also have to make a request for aid if they already know about alien life regardless of warp drive or not. And even then, the Feds can still overview the matter and decide whether or not to help.
Basically, the Feds have to have the full consent of whoever is asking them for help.
Basically, the Feds have to have the full consent of whoever is asking them for help.
I don't have a problem helping in cases of natural disaster, but in the case of disease I'm hesitant. Within a closed ecosystem disease plays a major role keeping populations in balance. If you cure all the epidemics you'll just create an overpopulation problem and all the suffering that comes with that. you have pushed the ecosystem out of balance and in order to get back into balance worse things will happen than what you were trying to prevent in the first place. Remember all the starving deer after we killed all the wolves? The wolves act as a population control rather than disease in this case.
Paradise Syndrome is a good example of the PD being bad, in so far as full application of the PD would have doomed an entire world of people, sacrificed to a political/philosophical principal.
A Private Little War is another example of where the PD, if improperly interpreted and improperly applied, is bad, it would have resulted in a world being taken as a Klingon client state.
Or help them.
If you can, if you have the ability, if you're right there. On the other hand, if you can't, or have no ability or are somewhere else, then sure Anwar, don't help.
If that's all your resources permit, then that's how many you save, hopefully the number of survivors constitute a viable "breeding population," and there's also enough people to preserve the cultural heratige of at least one of the doomed planets cultures.
I think it's silly to talk about what the PD means when it's been subject to so many different interpretations and been made such a mess of over the years.
Modern Trek hasn't abided by the whole "PD only applies if the race hasn't been contacted" rule or by the whole "PD applies only if the race is pre-warp" rule. It's basically become a plot device to mean "putting an obstacle in front of the crew." It was never meant in TOS to be so restrictively applied. At any rate, the idea that someone would know what a race's "natural development" is is just a ridiculous idea on its face.
Modern Trek hasn't abided by the whole "PD only applies if the race hasn't been contacted" rule or by the whole "PD applies only if the race is pre-warp" rule. It's basically become a plot device to mean "putting an obstacle in front of the crew." It was never meant in TOS to be so restrictively applied. At any rate, the idea that someone would know what a race's "natural development" is is just a ridiculous idea on its face.
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