Because neither is that hard. Telling Terrell to change the code isn't hard. He would have to know to tell him, though. Terrell was compliant but not offering suggestions, only following orders. And if it takes hardware swaps to change the code, they must have the hardware aboard, else Spock wouldn't worry about the code being changed.
The prefix number
- Thread starter xvicente
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Once again, that doesn't prove that actually changing the code was easy. There's a difference between asking someone to do something and the person in question actually doing it.
Pavonis said:
Which still doesn't mean that it's easy to do. They may have had the equipment aboard, but that tells us nothing of how sophisticated the equipment is or what needs to be done for it to actually carry out its intended function. Not everything involves pushing one or two buttons in order for something to happen.
--Sran
How could telling the ship's captain to change the code not be easy? Maybe Spock was just considering the worst case scenario, but it must be the within the realm of possibility for Khan to change the code. So how hard could it be?
I think we differ in how much intelligence to ascribe to Khan. You think he's super smart, I think he is well above average, but not smart enough to do simple things like read a manual or ask the Captain and First Officer about security measures. Khan's ego is big; is his brain as big as his ego? I don't think so.
I think we differ in how much intelligence to ascribe to Khan. You think he's super smart, I think he is well above average, but not smart enough to do simple things like read a manual or ask the Captain and First Officer about security measures. Khan's ego is big; is his brain as big as his ego? I don't think so.
Because it might not be. Asking someone to do something is not the same thing as the person in question actually being able to do it. Khan's asking Terrell to change the code doesn't mean that Terrell would have been able to do it. As the movie establishes, Khan was facing a delicate timetable. We have no way of knowing whether Terrell was aboard Reliant long enough before reaching Regula to make the necessary changes or to instruct Khan on how to do so himself.
Pavonis said:
I'm sure that's exactly what Spock was doing. As a Starfleet officer, it would be part of his job to be prepared for exactly that sort of eventuality. In any case, that doesn't mean that Khan's actually changing the code would be an easy task. There are any number of things that could fall into a "worst cast scenario" dynamic, some of which are relatively easy to bring about, and some of which are much more difficult. My point is that we don't have enough evidence either way, so it's foolish to make an assumption about it as you have done. I'm sorry you don't understand this.
Pavonis said:
You yourself said that he didn't do those things due to overconfidence, not a lack of intelligence. Do you even read what you post? That Khan didn't take the time to read the Reliant manual doesn't mean that he lacks intelligence or is incapable of understanding a complicated concept. Furthermore, we don't know that he didn't ask Terrell or Chekov about the ship's security measures. That still doesn't mean that actually altering the ship's security measures would be easy do. Why is this so hard for you understand?
--Sran
What's hard for me to understand is your insistence that changing the prefix code must be hard to do. I would think the two senior officers would have the authority and ability to change the security measures of their ship. Is that really that unreasonable? Of course, Spock didn't know that Terrell and Chekov were under Khan's thumb, so he must think Khan is able to change the code on his own. In my view, that means it must not be too difficult, because if it merely takes intelligence to do it, then it can't be a brute force operation, or take a long time. It must be possible to change the code in the time that Reliant was last known to be under Terrell's control.
If I understand your position, you think that because Spock considered Khan intelligent enough to change the code, it must be very difficult to do. I don't see it that way. Sometimes intelligence is as simple as knowing to ask a question and not let ego or emotion get in the way. Khan was known to be at least smart enough to look things up, since he did so in "Space Seed".
I would appreciate you not taking pot shots at me by asking inane questions about whether I read my posts or not. You're new, so maybe you don't know that making things personal isn't a good idea here. Nothing here is that important to take personally. I didn't insult you, you know.
If I understand your position, you think that because Spock considered Khan intelligent enough to change the code, it must be very difficult to do. I don't see it that way. Sometimes intelligence is as simple as knowing to ask a question and not let ego or emotion get in the way. Khan was known to be at least smart enough to look things up, since he did so in "Space Seed".
I would appreciate you not taking pot shots at me by asking inane questions about whether I read my posts or not. You're new, so maybe you don't know that making things personal isn't a good idea here. Nothing here is that important to take personally. I didn't insult you, you know.
I'm not insisting that at all. You're only assuming that I am. This is what I said in previous post:
Sran said:
Also:
Pavonis said:
I wasn't insulting you by asking if you re-read your posts. I was merely asking a question that you assumed was meant as an attack and took offense to. You're correct that I'm new here, but I've already seen several posters (not necessarily you, however) shoot down their own arguments because they clearly didn't read their own posts before continuing to discuss a topic.
--Sran
We never have enough information to know what goes on in Starfleet ships. That's not a particularly insightful post. If we were limited to just what was known through exposition, there'd be nothing worth discussing anymore. Most of these threads are all rehashing topics that are decades old. So we extrapolate from what little is known. And Spock thought Khan could change the prefix code. Does that mean it's really hard or really easy? Either conclusion is possible, and neither are foolish if the arguments are sound.
^On that point, we can agree.
--Sran
--Sran
Yeah, that's something to consider too. The mere existence of prefix codes may not be widely known.
In the 1991 Star Trek PC adventure game, there's a neat little call-back to TWOK where one of several solutions to boarding a Starfleet vessel which has been hijacked is to find it's security prefix code in the Enterprise computer and then force them to lower shields long enough to beam over.
Yeah. I'd think that Starfleet computers would easily be able to force their way through it. Even if the other vessel only allows for one attempt, that's pretty unsafe.
But it's an awesome scene.
Yeah. Maybe Khan read the manuals, but they probably don't mention that little bit.
Vonda McIntyre's novelization mentions Khan having memorized Enterprise's technical manual during "Space Seed." She elaborates that he was pleased to have found a vessel so similar to Enterprise because it required only brief skimming of Reliant's manual to become familiar with any system updates.
--Sran
the prefix code should have had a reference later in the movie as well... imo
after the enterprise counter attack the reliant withdraws. off screen she goes to regula and tries to get genesis. kahn cant find it then goes back to reliant. jocamin then says impulse power restored after kahn gets genesis. we then see the reliant approach the station expecting to find enterprise.
so my question is, why the need to restore impulse power before attacking enterprise? photon control and warp drive were what the counter attack knocked out. but a shielded reliant should have still been able to best the crippled enterprise. now if jocamin came up and said something to the effect of the codes been changed or weve regained sole and full control of the reliant then it would make sense that they hadnt gone and attacked the enterprise.
but maybe im over thinking.
after the enterprise counter attack the reliant withdraws. off screen she goes to regula and tries to get genesis. kahn cant find it then goes back to reliant. jocamin then says impulse power restored after kahn gets genesis. we then see the reliant approach the station expecting to find enterprise.
so my question is, why the need to restore impulse power before attacking enterprise? photon control and warp drive were what the counter attack knocked out. but a shielded reliant should have still been able to best the crippled enterprise. now if jocamin came up and said something to the effect of the codes been changed or weve regained sole and full control of the reliant then it would make sense that they hadnt gone and attacked the enterprise.
but maybe im over thinking.
^The way I see it, any ship entering a combat area needs to have a means of propulsion, and impulse power would allow the Reliant to maneuver with something besides minimal thrusters.
Additionally, consider what Decker told Kirk about the redesign of Enterprise's engine in TMP. Ships were able to increase phaser intensity by routing them through the main engines, so any vessel hoping to use phasers would need at least partial use of its main drive systems. With torpedo guidance unavailable, Reliant's phasers were its only means of attacking Enterprise that had a reasonable chance of success.
--Sran
Additionally, consider what Decker told Kirk about the redesign of Enterprise's engine in TMP. Ships were able to increase phaser intensity by routing them through the main engines, so any vessel hoping to use phasers would need at least partial use of its main drive systems. With torpedo guidance unavailable, Reliant's phasers were its only means of attacking Enterprise that had a reasonable chance of success.
--Sran
It's possible that as Reliant was retreating, additional damage may have occurred due to fires, power surges, etc.
Remember, Khan was trying to run a ship usually crewed by at least 300 with a crew of about 60. Even Enterprise with a full (admittedly mostly cadets/trainees) crew faced huge damage-control issues.
Khan wanted all the chips stacked in his favour, so waited until all the systems were repaired. After all, he knew the Enterprise wasn't going anywhere, and he had no intention of making the same mistake as he did in their first encounter.
Where are those numbers from? not that it matters much, the next movie canonized that a chimpanzee and two trainees can run a starship.
Not only that, the commander of an enemy ship with about twelve men thought they could board and overtake it.
Enterprise must be a sleeper ship.
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