The Pope

[Tora Ziyal]

NAZI Pope is leaving to be replaced by another asshole who that hates women, hates gays, hates Jews, hates Muslims, hates science, hates health and safety.

I hope he dies a slow painful death from his version of a vengeful god.

The fact people still care about stupid things like the Pope scares me.

I don't know what's worse with this post: your ignorance or your bigotry. Save your bile for TNZ.

Thank you, Sagart.

Pope John Paul II was very ill toward the end of his reign and the Church was left on almost autopilot, rudderless. As more details emerge, I suspect we'll find that the Holy Father wants to avoid this by having a transition of power now.

So do I.

My own take on the man is that his primary legacy will be as Joseph Ratzinger, theologian and scholar. And perhaps the humility he is showing by resigning. I admire him for that. But most everything else about his papacy and his role in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I would prefer never happened.

 

[gturner]

Looks like Bono gets another shot at the papacy. I can't believe they passed him over last time, although perhaps they did because it would seem like a step down from his current position.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^ God?

 

[stoneroses]

He was forced out.

 

[stoneroses]

Job vacancy:
Wanted man to drive around in glass transit van.
Must like children (not too much).
Must like traveling and runway kissing.
Smokers welcome but only ones who smoke a metal ball on a chain.
Must like Italy.
Must love peace and hate war.
Comes with several stylish costumes and more chains than Mr T.
Must not be or have been married.
Under 75s need not apply.
Must be familia with computer packages such as: Stained Glass Windows, Word of The Lord; Exelcis and Ecclesiastical Office.
Apply: Vatican City, we are looking to fill the post by 28th February 2013

 

[iguana_tonante]

Must like Italy.

I don't think that's a requirement. In fact, I have the feeling that most Popes hated Italy. Especially the Italian ones!

 

[gturner]

Considering all the changes society has gone through, should the new one call himself Pope Suburban, or perhaps Pope Finkelstein or Pope Abd al-Yasu to reflect more ethnic diversity?

 

[Sector 7]

If there is to be a new pope, he or she should be one...

No need to be PC.

There will be a new pontiff.
He will be a he.

Accidental Haiku!

Nice one.

I wasn't "trying" to be PC. I was simply expressing my view that the role should be open to whomever best serves it, regardless of gender. I don't expect it to actually be a woman, at least not yet, but I do believe it should be a woman, eventually, and that there is no good reason for it not to be, ever.

There may have already been a woman pope.

But it doesn't seem to actually do that, does it? In fact, the way the media portrays it, the Church seems to be more riddled with human failings than the rest of non-religious society at large. A lot of that may be schadenfreude - we enjoy tearing down those who set themselves up above us - but it certainly seems to me that the Church is mostly about holding onto its own power, the same as any large and powerful institution, and not about serving God in anything other than name and appearance.

Well, that certainly seems to be coming dangerously close to accusing gay men of being child molesters.

Allow people to express their genuine sexuality in normal ways, and it doesn't come out in abnormal ways directed at the vulnerable and dependent people.

Exactly. While some ministers do commit sinful acts against their congregations, it seems to be much more prevalent in the Catholic Church than others. The Catholic Church has also had a pattern of quiet acceptance-- even complicity-- of pedophilia.

The role of the church is not to please men, but to please God.

I don't think God wants them to hide the pedophiles amongst their ranks.

Nazi Pope? Give me a fucking break. Joseph Ratzinger was CONSCRIPTED into the ranks. He joined because he had no choice. He was not enthusiastic or even willing - he refused to attend any party meetings. And he deserted at the earliest opportunity.

There is always a choice. Many martyrs have died for their beliefs... and the Catholic Church calls them Saints. Ratzinger took the easy way out. This makes him a coward. The same coward who protects pedophile priests, rather than subject them to punishment by law enforcement.

[TrekBBS decided to muddle the original quotes, so some responses may be to the wrong person. I have attempted to correct as best I can... no idea why it happened.]

 

[Avon]

in the words of my brother: "what's the deal with the old guy in the dress? seems kinda gay"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is always a choice. Many martyrs have died for their beliefs... and the Catholic Church calls them Saints. Ratzinger took the easy way out. This makes him a coward.

So you would prefer that not only he, but his whole family, had been executed as traitors to the state? Because that's what the Nazis did.

It is not our place to expect anyone to die. We have no right. This includes Ratzinger and anyone else who was conscripted against their will.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There may have already been a woman pope.

No.

 

[stoneroses]

Must like Italy.

I don't think that's a requirement. In fact, I have the feeling that most Popes hated Italy. Especially the Italian ones!

That's one of the reasons they are getting rid of the current one lol

 

[Sector 7]

There is always a choice. Many martyrs have died for their beliefs... and the Catholic Church calls them Saints. Ratzinger took the easy way out. This makes him a coward.

So you would prefer that not only he, but his whole family, had been executed as traitors to the state? Because that's what the Nazis did.

It is not our place to expect anyone to die. We have no right. This includes Ratzinger and anyone else who was conscripted against their will.

The Catholic Church considers the Pope a perfect successor to Saint Peter... infallible. A perfect person, even a Saint, should be willing to die for the cause of Christ. Ratzinger did NOT do that. By Catholic Church criteria, Ratzinger did not live up to their own standards. [This point has nothing to do with the separate issue of hiding pedophile priests from prosecution. On that count, Ratzinger won't be meeting St. Peter at the gate. Rather, he'll be heading in another direction.]

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

By Catholic Church criteria, Ratzinger did not live up to their own standards.

Nobody's perfect.

And besides, at the time, he was just a kid. He hadn't even gone into seminary yet. There were no standards he could have been expected to live up to.

Like I said, we have no right to expect anyone to die. For example: If somebody comes into your place of work with the intent to rob you, you could fight back - in which case the robber would probably kill you. But if you choose to cooperate so that they, you know, WON'T kill you, that is just a normal human instinct - to want to live. Everybody has it.

 

[Sector 7]

By Catholic Church criteria, Ratzinger did not live up to their own standards.

Nobody's perfect.

And besides, at the time, he was just a kid. He hadn't even gone into seminary yet. There were no standards he could have been expected to live up to.

Like I said, we have no right to expect anyone to die. For example: If somebody comes into your place of work with the intent to rob you, you could fight back - in which case the robber would probably kill you. But if you choose to cooperate so that they, you know, WON'T kill you, that is just a normal human instinct - to want to live. Everybody has it.

Having been in, you know, actual combat where people were trying to kill us... we chose to stand and fight, rather than follow "just a normal human instinct - to want to live".

Definition of martyr: here, here, here and here.
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

- Jesus, crucified.
- Paul, crucified upside down, because he felt unworthy to die the same death as Jesus Christ.
- John, cousin to Jesus, beheaded for preaching against Herod's incestuous relationship.
Many, many more examples can be found throughout Christian history, as well as, those of other faiths.

We must agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also it took courage for Ratzinger to desert the German army. That in itself provided severe risk to his life, because he would have been executed if caught. So doesn't that count for something?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth—as membership was required by law for all 14-year-old German boys after December 1939[14]—but was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings, according to his brother.[15] In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was taken away by the Nazi regime and murdered during the Action T4 campaign of Nazi eugenics.[16] In 1943, while still in seminary, he was drafted into the German anti-aircraft corps as Luftwaffenhelfer (air force child soldier).[15] Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry.[17] As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household

Joining the Hitler Youth was like being on facebook. Everyone did it.

I don't think too many 14 year olds would make a stand and die over such a thing.

I have nothing nice to say about the pope but he wasn't a nazi. There's plenty or real stuff to trash him over.

 

[Jan]

The Catholic Church considers the Pope a perfect successor to Saint Peter... infallible. A perfect person, even a Saint, should be willing to die for the cause of Christ. Ratzinger did NOT do that

Sorry, that's absolutely wrong. Successor to Peter, yes. Perfect person...no more so than Peter was. Remember him? Denied Jesus three times? Yeah, that Peter. As for infallibility, that's only under certain specific circumstances, none of which apply to a 14-year-old seminarian.

Jan

 

[sidious618]

Also it took courage for Ratzinger to desert the German army. That in itself provided severe risk to his life, because he would have been executed if caught. So doesn't that count for something?

When he ignored child rape an child torture? No.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

The Catholic Church considers the Pope a perfect successor to Saint Peter... infallible. A perfect person, even a Saint, should be willing to die for the cause of Christ. Ratzinger did NOT do that

Sorry, that's absolutely wrong. Successor to Peter, yes. Perfect person...no more so than Peter was. Remember him? Denied Jesus three times? Yeah, that Peter. As for infallibility, that's only under certain specific circumstances, none of which apply to a 14-year-old seminarian.

Jan

Sector 7, Jan is correct. Infallibility means that the pope does not err when he speaks ex cathedra (in his official/public capacity), defining some doctrine of faith or morals. And there are some limitations even within that.

Infallibility has nothing to do with perfection as a person, or with anything unofficial that the pope says. Benedict himself has pointed out that his books -- some written after he became pope -- are not infallible or even church dogma, just the opinions of a theologian.

Also, some courageous people's standing up for their principles/beliefs, even at the risk of death, doesn't mean that the natural human instinct isn't to preserve one's life. Part of why we admire martyrs is that they have chosen the less instinctive, more difficult way.