The Pegasus

[velour]

The Romulans are already working on phasing cloak tech prior to the events in The Pegasus. I have to back Picard's call to expose the truth, firstly because it's the truth. Secondly, to not come forward risks a cover up being developed, a cover up which almost certainly would involve pretending the Enterprise never got out of that asteroid, meaning quite possibly the ship getting mothballed, the crew getting broken up, and maybe even sequestered. You can't have them roaming about when they should all be dead in an asteroid

I did not mean to suggest a cover up. Once the Enterprise emerged from the phased cloak and out of the asteroid, in plain sight of the Romulans, Picard should have imo offered the deal that I mentioned in my previous post.

Thirdly, making that treaty (& protecting or salvaging it) may be necessary because Starfleet NOT actively engaging in an arms race could be the only thing preventing all out war. The Romulans had cloaking tech before the UFP. Any attempt by the UFP to develop such tactical tech to compete, (Initiating the arms race) is clearly a declaration of animosity. Saying by action that you refuse to let them have a weapon which you do not also possess can only mean one thing. You are our enemy.

The Feds would have to be naive to think that the only thing that has prevented an all out war with the Romulans is a piece of paper (or whatever it is that they use to write their treaties on) or to think that the Romulans are not their enemies.

By their actions, the Romulans have already declared their animosity towards the Federation and that the Feds are their enemies. The Romulans have engaged in small scale and covert warfare against the Federation since, I guess, the Balance of Terror.


I can think of a number of instances of this type of Romulan warfare against the Feds.

The Romulans attempted an invasion of a Federation member, Vulcan. They kidnapped Geordi to manipulate him to sabatoge the Fed-Klingon alliance. They created a trap with a Romulan defector to trick Picard to enter the neutral zone and Picard took the bait.

And in the Pegasus episode itself, the Romulan ship deliberately caused the opening of the asteroid to cave in, thus trapping the Enterprise. That was an act of hostility committed right in front of Picard. It was a shame that Picard showed more anger at Pressman's transgression than toward the Romulan aggression.

Picard should not have been apologetic, especially in the face of aggression.

Why should the Feds concede phased cloaking technology to the Romulans anyway? The no-cloak-for-the-Feds treaty is already lopsided, why concede further advantage to the Romulans?

There is a danger if the Romulans do finally succeed in implementing phased cloak technology in their warships. It might actually encourage them to engage in more aggression against the Feds. The Romulans may think that phased cloak finally gives them the edge that would bring a successful military victory over the Feds. If the Feds, as Picard wishes, continues to fully abide by the no-cloak treaty, Starfleet would not be able to openly counter and thus deter the Romulans.


Besides, it seems to me that the Romulans have more to fear than the Federation. I would think that the Romulans would be more willing to renegotiate the no-cloak treaty in order to ban phased cloak systems for both sides than to allow the Feds to withdraw from the treaty and employ cloak in Fed ships. Picard should have used the successful demonstration of the Pegasus cloak as leverage.

The Romulans had all the excuse they needed with the Pegasus incident to declare all out war with the Feds. They caught the Feds red handed in violating the treaty, yet that didn't prompt them to declare war. It seemed like it would have been worth the gamble for Picard to take a more assertive stance. The Romulans did not appear to have the stomach for a full scale war.

And in the other instances that I mentioned above, the Romulans have always backed down from going to full scale war when Starfleet stood their ground, even when the Fed was in violation of treaty, like when Picard fell for the defector trap.

From watching those eps, I have gotten the impression that the Romulans can be deterred, but only if the Feds are willing and able to counter hostile Romulan actions.

That treaty gives them the political leverage to say they support peaceable relations. You don't give up political leverage to Romulans. It's exactly what they want. That's why I think they made that treaty. They get to hold the moral high ground, which is why other races, like Klingons have their back. You can trust the UFP, even if a jerk or two slip up from time to time. You blast it out of the water, & keep trying to hold your moral ground

I agree with your sentiments about how the Federation should always try to hold the moral high ground and to maintain their values. But when they are dealing with an aggressive imperialistic foe like the Romulans, the Feds have to throw military strength into the mix. A piece of paper can only go so far. The Feds have to maintain a credible deterrence. Federation deterrence through strength is something that can keep an aggressive Romulan Empire in check.

 

[Mojochi]

I did not mean to suggest a cover up. Once the Enterprise emerged from the phased cloak and out of the asteroid, in plain sight of the Romulans, Picard should have imo offered the deal that I mentioned in my previous post.

You mean that Picard should have taunted the use of their phase cloak in front of the Romulans after getting out of the asteroid, which by the way would've also been neglecting Pressman's orders. They didn't have to reveal themselves after getting out, & Pressman wanted them to not do so. In any way revealing themselves countermand's Pressman's orders, and in your example, Picard would also be unilaterally deciding policy for the entire UFP, throwing away a treaty, & throwing it up in the Romulans' faces. He doesn't have the latitude to do either. His only options were to follow Pressman's orders, which would've led to a cover up, or reveal the tech to the Romulans, & force the UFP to handle the breach of policy, as he is just a captain, and though many people would look on him as a whistle blower, he was adhering to the letter of the law, despite disobeying Pressman's order

The Feds would have to be naive to think that the only thing that has prevented an all out war with the Romulans is a piece of paper (or whatever it is that they use to write their treaties on) or to think that the Romulans are not their enemies.

It's not just a piece of paper or whatever. It's a declaration that "We" will not engage you as an enemy by battling in a cold war arms race. Of course the Rommies think of the UFP as enemies, but by declaring peaceful intention, you are stating that if they do treat you as an enemy, attack, invade, etc... then it is they who are the aggressors, & under those circumstances, we will defend ourselves, & call out to everyone to come to our aid against you. We will have political advantage as being the victim, but if we actively pursue an arms race, then we are declaring a mutual animosity. Right now, it's not mutual, as long as the treaty is upheld. They just have a black eye to deal with, and try to set the status quo back in place, instead of being an open & active challenge to the Romulan Empire. I'm probably not going to win you over on this point, because it's a simple disagreement on how to manage a bully, out bully them, or out think them. I vote for out think.

Why should the Feds concede phased cloaking technology to the Romulans anyway? The no-cloak-for-the-Feds treaty is already lopsided, why concede further advantage to the Romulans?

There is a danger if the Romulans do finally succeed in implementing phased cloak technology in their warships. It might actually encourage them to engage in more aggression against the Feds. The Romulans may think that phased cloak finally gives them the edge that would bring a successful military victory over the Feds. If the Feds, as Picard wishes, continues to fully abide by the no-cloak treaty, Starfleet would not be able to openly counter and thus deter the Romulans.

This is the ultimate issue that plagued out own society in our cold war. Employing a cloak or phased cloak does not nullify their advantage in using one against us. It simply gives us equal lethality, which is only useful if you intend to go to war with someone. It's more advantageous to abstain & gain the political advantage of being the non-aggressor, and instead focus on preventative measures, like what they did in Redemption to nullify the cloaking advantage. Let them know you can & will defeat their advantage instead of just challenging them by matching it tit for tat. You'll always be behind the ball that way anyhow

 

[T'Girl]

This is the ultimate issue that plagued out own society in our cold war. Employing a cloak or phased cloak does not nullify their advantage in using one against us. It simply gives us equal lethality, which is only useful if you intend to go to war with someone.

You're forgetting something, when Geordi LaForge and Ro Laren were both phased, they could see each other, and the Romulan who was also phased.

So there would be an advantage to the Federation having phase technology if the Romulans also possessed it.

Just having the same tech easily could prevent a war, or give you the means to obtain victory if war occurs.

 

[Mojochi]

This is the ultimate issue that plagued out own society in our cold war. Employing a cloak or phased cloak does not nullify their advantage in using one against us. It simply gives us equal lethality, which is only useful if you intend to go to war with someone.

You're forgetting something, when Geordi LaForge and Ro Laren were both phased, they could see each other, and the Romulan who was also phased.

So there would be an advantage to the Federation having phase technology if the Romulans also possessed it.

Just having the same tech easily could prevent a war, or give you the means to obtain victory if war occurs.

I think you may have misquoted. I think I posted that remark

Anyway, Ro & Geordi were both phased because of the Romulan technology. Basically, they were cloaked by Romulans. Creating your own tech would not guarantee that you could better detect theirs. It wouldn't even likely let you end up in the same phase differential as them, unless you had knowledge of what theirs was. It happened purely by accident. The whole thing was a giant accident, and so was Pegasus. Everybody has had nothing but catastrophes with this technology, which is another reason it's problematic

It's at best 50/50 on whether having the same tech could prevent a war or instigate one, and giving you the means to win a war publically illustrates your intention to be at war, which is what I'm arguing was a primary reason why the treaty might've been instituted to begin with. Not expressing warlike intentions is a solid platform, and developing cloaking detection is a better use of your efforts anyway

 

[T'Girl]

misquoted

Oops

and giving you the means to win a war publically illustrates your intention to be at war

That doesn't follow in the least. Having the means to fight and win a war is the perfect way of preventing a war, and of defending yourself and your allies.

 

[Mojochi]

and giving you the means to win a war publically illustrates your intention to be at war

That doesn't follow in the least. Having the means to fight and win a war is the perfect way of preventing a war, and of defending yourself and your allies.

Ok, so it's like this... We two are neighbors & the two most influential & commanding presences in our neighborhood. Now, if you have a very special weapon, and I don't have that weapon, because it's never really been specific to my needs before, & then suddenly, I decide I must also have that special weapon that you have.

What does that say? It says that I don't trust you, that you are an adversary, that I expect you & I to war with one another, & even though having the weapon doesn't nullify your ability to use it on me, I will choose to have it anyway, because then I can act on you in the way I fear you will act on me.

That makes ME the person challenging you, and Starfleet follows the philosophy that they do not initiate hostilities like that. It's even worse given that Romulans are not the only people the UFP have encountered who use this weapon. The Klingons use it, & the UFP never chose to pursue the technology when it was a potential disadvantage in that situation. So, it makes the UFP look more fearful & belligerent to be pursuing it now. It's an overt declaration that "WE are your enemy"

If we were talking about biological weapons that the Romulans were intending to use, this would be a lesser debate, because very few people would suggest that Starfleet should be developing bioweapons in order to even the balance. Entering into an arms race is war. We call it a cold war. We jockey for advantage because we plan to have a war with you. We are looking at you from across the street & yelling "It's only a matter of time before we go at it, you & I"

That is not the way of Starfleet, at least it's not supposed to be

 

[T'Girl]

Entering into an arms race is war. We call it a cold war. We jockey for advantage because we plan to have a war with you.

Or (more likely) we "jockey for position" so that an attack will be met with a response, there by convincing a potential opponent that a attack would be unwise.

Mutual Assured Destruct kept nuclear peace on Earth for the multiple decades it took the Soviet Union to collapse. MAD worked.

We two are neighbors & ...

This only applies if we are already adversaries, if we are close allies then no. And if we are in fact adversaries then yes I will attempt to (at minimum) match you, if not in kind, then with something that will nullify your existing advantage.

There by making war less likely.

That makes ME the person challenging you, and Starfleet follows the philosophy that they do not initiate hostilities like that.

Excuse me? Starfleet vessels don't have weapons and defenses to match those on Romulan (and others) starships, what about phasers-torpedoes-shields-etc.? What about the fact that Starfleet can often track Romulan cloaked vessel, inspite of their cloaks?

If Starfleet was truly non-confrontational, why was a gravitic sensor net/grid deployed across the neutral zone in the 24th century.

The Klingons use it, & the UFP never chose to pursue the technology ...

In the case of cloaking technology, even though Starfleet rarely employs it, that doesn't mean they never pursued knowledge of the tech. They've obtain examples of the equipment through espionage, it is obvious (to me anyway) that Starfleet has studied it. Through the years it's likely been a back and forth game of improvement to the cloaking device, followed by similar improvements in sensor detection.

Even if Starfleet never deployed phase technology in their starship fleet, studying phase techniques (including some ships with working examples) would be prudent.

The US military would obtain, fly and study enemy aircraft, they used Russian MiGs as aggressors in training our pilots. They didn't do this because they intended to begin to using Russian planes instead of our own, they did this to understand what a enemy equipment would be able to do in warfare.

... few people would suggest that Starfleet should be developing bioweapons in order to even the balance.

Of course they would. We'll heard Starfleet officers discussions using nanites as weapons, computer viruses to kill Borg. Kirk used a chemical weapon against Khan, Sisko used a bioweapon against the Marquis.

A bioweapon is what won the war against the Dominion, and prior to the wars end when a cure was found, the Federation Council had no problem sitting on it.

That is not the way of Starfleet, at least it's not supposed to be

It is very much Starfleet's way. When your own people are in danger, you don't base you decisions on what best for your enemy.

Starfleet is the Federation's defenders, they're "supposed" to be.

 

[USS Triumphant]

My view on the OP's question about using Tom Riker instead of William is that it wouldn't have made a difference either way. What happens on Pegasus happened before Riker's accident that split him into two people.

In saying that, Riker's regrets, second guessing and views of what happened on Pegasus would have been the same in both William and Tom, thus the final outcome would have remained the same. Having a higher rank or not wouldn't have made a difference in this regard. Beyond having different experiences in life after the accident, their way of thinking, their own principles and such were still the same.

I'm not sure. Will was in a solid, stable life, but Tom was running loose and looking for connections and some way to distinguish himself from Will. We don't know what conclusions he came to about what happened aboard the Pegasus - maybe they were the same, but I can't see Will running off to join the Maquis, either. Perhaps Pressman would have been a welcome link to his past after so long alone...

 

[Nebusj]

misquoted

Oops

and giving you the means to win a war publically illustrates your intention to be at war

That doesn't follow in the least. Having the means to fight and win a war is the perfect way of preventing a war, and of defending yourself and your allies.

Just ask Kaiser Wilhelm!