The Pegasus

[Vandervecken]

Well, that would really depend on the terms of the treaty and how willing Starfleet and/or the Federation government is to violate it.

They wouldn't BE violating the treaty in those instances, unless the Treaty had some specific provision that DID read "any new technologies that have even a secondary effect of cloaking are also banned from Federation use."

 

[DonIago]

Since you haven't read the treaty, how can you rule that out?

Hell, we already speculated that it had terms that mandated Picard immediately communicate with the Romulans as he did.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Yes, those technologies would fall under the treaty. We don't know the text of the actual article so this is a little awkward to debate, but it is said repeatedly that the treaty bans cloaking devices.

You cannot argue that your examples have nothing to do with cloaking when they cloak the ship that fields them.

I absolutely can argue that they having nothing to do with cloaking when their primary purpose is other. That is precisely what I argue, and I not only argue it, I assert it.

I don't believe for one second Starfleet/The Federation would suppress those techs just because a side effect of the tech is to cause invisibility to sensors. An advanced warp drive that, say, allowed them to travel at warp 10 and higher, safely? New materials that, say, resulted in a 10-fold reduction in cancer among ship crews because of reduced radiation/particle exposure? And they'd abandon those things just because of this treaty? Not a chance. And neither should they have abandoned phasing.

This is exactly the kind of factual and legal nuance that needs to be considered before casually assuming a technology is subject to this treaty. This overbroad interpretation of applying it to techs that have even a secondary effect of cloaking gives the Romulans an automatic veto over the Feds creating any new NON-cloaking tech that by accident creates a cloaking effect. The Treaty was not created for that purpose and both Federation jurists and legislators would likely and appropriately reject this interpretation. When considering what to do in odd situations under the law, it is not at all strange for jurists to consider the purpose of a statute or, in this case, a treaty.

You're right: you can argue and assert anything you want. That does not mean it makes sense. A technology that does more than one thing, and one of those things is cloaking, can not, by definition, have nothing to do with cloaking.

You are changing topics a bit here.

Undoubtedly, the treaty can have unexpected consequences; laws often do. There are differences between law and technology in our time. You are touching on the question of whether the Federation would abide by the treaty. That is a different question.

Maybe you are right, that the benefits would so outweigh the consequences that the Federation would violate the treaty. The legal thing to do would be to renegotiate the treaty, not simply violate it. I agree with you that the provision gives a significan upper hand to the Romulans. But, again, that is a matter for renegotiation.

But that is hypothetical, and everyone in the show, including Pressman, concedes that the phasing cloak (it even has "cloak" in the name) violated the treaty.

 

[Vandervecken]

Yes, those technologies would fall under the treaty. We don't know the text of the actual article so this is a little awkward to debate, but it is said repeatedly that the treaty bans cloaking devices.

You cannot argue that your examples have nothing to do with cloaking when they cloak the ship that fields them.

I absolutely can argue that they having nothing to do with cloaking when their primary purpose is other. That is precisely what I argue, and I not only argue it, I assert it.

I don't believe for one second Starfleet/The Federation would suppress those techs just because a side effect of the tech is to cause invisibility to sensors. An advanced warp drive that, say, allowed them to travel at warp 10 and higher, safely? New materials that, say, resulted in a 10-fold reduction in cancer among ship crews because of reduced radiation/particle exposure? And they'd abandon those things just because of this treaty? Not a chance. And neither should they have abandoned phasing.

This is exactly the kind of factual and legal nuance that needs to be considered before casually assuming a technology is subject to this treaty. This overbroad interpretation of applying it to techs that have even a secondary effect of cloaking gives the Romulans an automatic veto over the Feds creating any new NON-cloaking tech that by accident creates a cloaking effect. The Treaty was not created for that purpose and both Federation jurists and legislators would likely and appropriately reject this interpretation. When considering what to do in odd situations under the law, it is not at all strange for jurists to consider the purpose of a statute or, in this case, a treaty.

You're right: you can argue and assert anything you want. That does not mean it makes sense. A technology that does more than one thing, and one of those things is cloaking, can not, by definition, have nothing to do with cloaking.

You are changing topics a bit here.

Undoubtedly, the treaty can have unexpected consequences; laws often do. There are differences between law and technology in our time. You are touching on the question of whether the Federation would abide by the treaty. That is a different question.

Maybe you are right, that the benefits would so outweigh the consequences that the Federation would violate the treaty. The legal thing to do would be to renegotiate the treaty, not simply violate it. I agree with you that the provision gives a significan upper hand to the Romulans. But, again, that is a matter for renegotiation.

But that is hypothetical, and everyone in the show, including Pressman, concedes that the phasing cloak (it even has "cloak" in the name) violated the treaty.

Of course this assertion and argument make sense; you're simply putting all the weight of importance on the secondary effect of cloaking. Nor did you effectively answer my hypotheticals.

Yes, Picard made that decision, and Starfleet must have thought that the tech came under the treaty as well else it wouldn't have been developed under the degree of secrecy it was. I don't agree at all with that interpretation.

Phasing technology could have TREMENDOUS value having nothing to do with its cloaking effect. For one thing, the interiors of worlds could now be fully explored. And that should be sacrificed because of a secondary effect? Or in my hypotheticals, 10+ warp or a huge reduction in cancer should be sacrificed because the Romulans can't sense the ship? Doubtful.

The purpose of the treaty was to prevent war with the Romulans, NOT to retard Federation technological growth. While including phasing tech under the treaty may be an unintended consequence of an overbroad interpretation, it would not be a consequence of a common sense interpretation. Not making such an interpretation would not be a violation of the treaty, and not including phasing tech (or any of the other examples I offered) under the treaty would not be illegal in the first place, so renegotiation is required. Laws and treaties are interpreted all the time, by courts, without actual rewriting of the law.

 

[DonIago]

I don't know how you can make the assertions you do in your final paragraph with such certainty without having access to the text of the treaty.

For all we know the treaty says, "The Federation will not under any circumstances develop technology that may render starships invisible to sensors." Whether it's a primary or secondary effect is irrelevant.

 

[MacLeod]

It's not unreasnable to expect Captain's to know the contents of certain treaties. If your ship will be near the RNZ it's only prudent that you are familiar with the treatythat governs that border.

If it says something along the lines of

38.2.1 The United Federation of Planets shall refrain from developing cloaking devices.

Then even a lay person can tell when it's een broken when the evidence is right in front of them.

From what we've seen in episodes Starfleet Captain's do engage in some diplomatic work, sure they might handle initial contact and it's followed up more more full time diplomat's, Ambassadoirs etc..

 

[Richard Baker]

IMO whoever negotiated that Treaty of Algeron was an idiot. Cloaking technology gives the Romulans an incredible advantage - like Red October they can make a devastating first strike without ever being detected. Giving them that and crippling your own forces by denying them the same technology just does not make sense to me. If the Federation had cloaking as well then the Romulans would be less inclined to cause trouble since Starfleet could counterstrike without detection.
Problem is we simply do not know what the Treaty of Algeron says or the other conditions surrounding it. They keep saying it stopped a war, but how and what did the Federation get in return?

 

[Nebusj]

IMO whoever negotiated that Treaty of Algeron was an idiot. Cloaking technology gives the Romulans an incredible advantage - like Red October they can make a devastating first strike without ever being detected.

And yet … somehow … the Romulans didn't. Indeed, the Romulans were so very satisfied with the state of affairs regarding the Federation that they could sit through 64 years of being apparently just gone, letting the Federation do what it wanted without direct bother. It's almost as if the Federation and the Romulans agreed to some kind of exchange by which both parties felt more secure than they otherwise thought they were likely to be, or some weird crazy moon-man thing like that.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Of course this assertion and argument make sense; you're simply putting all the weight of importance on the secondary effect of cloaking. Nor did you effectively answer my hypotheticals.

Yes, Picard made that decision, and Starfleet must have thought that the tech came under the treaty as well else it wouldn't have been developed under the degree of secrecy it was. I don't agree at all with that interpretation.

Phasing technology could have TREMENDOUS value having nothing to do with its cloaking effect. For one thing, the interiors of worlds could now be fully explored. And that should be sacrificed because of a secondary effect? Or in my hypotheticals, 10+ warp or a huge reduction in cancer should be sacrificed because the Romulans can't sense the ship? Doubtful.

The purpose of the treaty was to prevent war with the Romulans, NOT to retard Federation technological growth. While including phasing tech under the treaty may be an unintended consequence of an overbroad interpretation, it would not be a consequence of a common sense interpretation. Not making such an interpretation would not be a violation of the treaty, and not including phasing tech (or any of the other examples I offered) under the treaty would not be illegal in the first place, so renegotiation is required. Laws and treaties are interpreted all the time, by courts, without actual rewriting of the law.

I did answer your hypotheticals: I answered honestly that I don't know what the Federation would do in those circumstances but that the legal thing to do would be to renegotiate. I guess you are trying to make a argument reductio ad absurdum with those scenarios.

I think you are overstating your case here: you said that those hypothetical technologies "have nothing to do with cloaking when their primary purpose is other." Obviously they have something to do with cloaking because they cloak. That is true even if we categorize the cloaking as only secondary.

I have a hypothetical of my own: The next time you go to the airport to get on a plane, bring a handgun with you, but get the kind that has a light attached to it. Then, at your trial after they arrest you for bringing a gun onto a plane, ask the judge to dismiss the charges because you didn't bring a gun, you brought a flashlight that only secondarily functions as a gun.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I think the United Federation of Planets has a policy of transparency which is incompatible with the application of cloaking technology, and therefore believe that was a rather easy concession in the negotiations for the Treaty of Algeron (but somehow obviously important for the Romulan Star Empire).

On the other hand, I'm certain that the UFP did not sign a paragraph that would have prevented it from researching and developping counter-measures to detect cloaked ships.

Bob

 

[Mojochi]

IMO whoever negotiated that Treaty of Algeron was an idiot. Cloaking technology gives the Romulans an incredible advantage - like Red October they can make a devastating first strike without ever being detected. Giving them that and crippling your own forces by denying them the same technology just does not make sense to me. If the Federation had cloaking as well then the Romulans would be less inclined to cause trouble since Starfleet could counterstrike without detection.
Problem is we simply do not know what the Treaty of Algeron says or the other conditions surrounding it. They keep saying it stopped a war, but how and what did the Federation get in return?

That's one way of looking at it. The other way would be to say that it was very calculated to publicly choose to not develop cloaking tech. Perhaps openly developing it was the very thing that would've caused the Romulans to view the UFP as a threat to their domain, and thereby inciting them to all out war. Ultimately, the Romulans & the UFP are not enemies anymore. They are mutual nonaggressors, with a neutral zone & the occasional cold war tactics

The folks who proposed the Treaty of Algeron were possibly very adept minded persons who saw that it was the line not to be crossed, & by not crossing it, the UFP actually has an advantage in diplomacy, and perhaps it was also considered less of an issue given that their cloaking tech was not as threatening as it had once been. UFP officers have devised ways to overcome the disadvantage when necessary. My favorite was when they used cloaked Klingon ships as backup in The Defector

And seeing that the Romulans have never even tried to conquer the UFP with that advantage, since the treaty, it's fair to say it was the right move, whether it was because they couldn't do it, or just chose not to, due to the tensions being lower as a result of the UFP not challenging on those grounds

To say "We will develop that tech which you possess, because we don't want you to have a tactical advantage over us" is saying "We are your enemies & we will escalate an arms race with you". That is a risky stand to make, & choosing to forgo it changes the entire dynamic, which actually strengthens the UFP's diplomatic position

I think it's actually genius when you look at it like that. It's a brilliant chess move. The tech you should be developing, imho is cloak detection, tachyon dispersion fields & whatnot. Why does the UFP need to be cloaked? It doesn't prevent a cloaked attack. Plus, their policy is to be honorable & conduct their business out in the open

You do not have to become your enemy in order to beat them

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The real reason for the no cloaking treaty is that the writers wanted an excuse for them not to have cloaking, of course.

The in universe explanation had to be just the Federation's aversion to war at all costs. The Romulans probably weren't sure they'd win a war or wanted to focus on another front, so they pushed for a treaty that gave them a long term advantage but wouldn't make them appear weak, which the Federation was happy to accept because if there was a war the casualty count would be high.

 

[PhoenixClass]

Mojochi you make very good points. I especially like your observation about cloaking not being a defensive technology. Strategically, it is a first strike technology.

An explanation I have for the prohibition is that since the Federation did not know how to make cloaking devices, it was not a big concession anyway.

 

[Armored Saint]

Kirk's mission is basically analogous to what Pressman was doing, and he plays it completely straight, following his orders to sneak aboard a Romulan vessel and steal away her cloak, even though (we presume) the treaty forbidding Federation cloaking technology was in effect even then, and Kirk would reasonably be expected to be cut loose by Starfleet if the Romulans catch him (which they do, luckily he escapes).

No, the treaty between the UFP and the Romulan Empire that was effective was from 22nd century and stated the Neutral Zone. I know Enterprise contradicts that, but according to Balance of Terror, Starfleet didn't know that cloaking technology was no more only virtually possible.

I agree with Robert Comsol and Mojochi, working on their own cloaking technology would only have been a waste of time, because it will have launch an arm race.
You realise that very soon we will learn to penetrate the cloaking device you stole. - The Romulan Commander in The Enterprise Incident
I don't think the Algernon treaty was stupid. It has been an effective way to appease the Romulans who then didn't need to accelerate the improvement of their cloaking technology, so Starfleet didn't have to stress the improvement of their detection technology.

I also think that Picard made the right thing by uncloaking in front of Sirol's warbird and telling him the Federation will soon contact the Empire about this. He was better to be immediately transparent than letting the Romulan discovering by themselves that the Enterprise escaped and then having the excuse to start a war.

Mojochi you make very good points. I especially like your observation about cloaking not being a defensive technology. Strategically, it is a first strike technology.

Yeah, at least the cloaking device for the Defiant had a specific purpose, but giving it to all Starfleet's ships would indicate an aggressive motivation. Pressman sounded like Cartwright.

 

[Vandervecken]

Of course this assertion and argument make sense; you're simply putting all the weight of importance on the secondary effect of cloaking. Nor did you effectively answer my hypotheticals.

Yes, Picard made that decision, and Starfleet must have thought that the tech came under the treaty as well else it wouldn't have been developed under the degree of secrecy it was. I don't agree at all with that interpretation.

Phasing technology could have TREMENDOUS value having nothing to do with its cloaking effect. For one thing, the interiors of worlds could now be fully explored. And that should be sacrificed because of a secondary effect? Or in my hypotheticals, 10+ warp or a huge reduction in cancer should be sacrificed because the Romulans can't sense the ship? Doubtful.

The purpose of the treaty was to prevent war with the Romulans, NOT to retard Federation technological growth. While including phasing tech under the treaty may be an unintended consequence of an overbroad interpretation, it would not be a consequence of a common sense interpretation. Not making such an interpretation would not be a violation of the treaty, and not including phasing tech (or any of the other examples I offered) under the treaty would not be illegal in the first place, so renegotiation is required. Laws and treaties are interpreted all the time, by courts, without actual rewriting of the law.

I did answer your hypotheticals: I answered honestly that I don't know what the Federation would do in those circumstances but that the legal thing to do would be to renegotiate. I guess you are trying to make a argument reductio ad absurdum with those scenarios.

I think you are overstating your case here: you said that those hypothetical technologies "have nothing to do with cloaking when their primary purpose is other." Obviously they have something to do with cloaking because they cloak. That is true even if we categorize the cloaking as only secondary.

I have a hypothetical of my own: The next time you go to the airport to get on a plane, bring a handgun with you, but get the kind that has a light attached to it. Then, at your trial after they arrest you for bringing a gun onto a plane, ask the judge to dismiss the charges because you didn't bring a gun, you brought a flashlight that only secondarily functions as a gun.

In your hypothetical, the primary purpose of the device is to be used as a a weapon. In my cases, they're neither weapons (although they may have weapons applications, which are not covered under the treaty per se) nor defenses of any kind in their primary uses.

 

[DonIago]

How do you know what is or is not covered under the treaty?

 

[Vandervecken]

How do you know what is or is not covered under the treaty?

I you're asking me, I don't, exactly, nor does anyone else. But, I presume its purpose was to avoid creating an escalating arms race with the Romulans, not to generally retard Federation technological development by including anything that has any kind of sensorovisual masking effect under its terms.

 

[GalaxyX]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?

 

[DonIago]

I could see the Romulans' form of help "accidentally" involve either destroying the ship or disabling it to the point that the Romulans would then "helpfully" bring it to a Romulan-controlled system.

 

[Mojochi]

I don't think anyone mentioned this, but why not just have Picard and the Enterprise pretend that they are helpless inside and ask the Romulans to set them free?

Then deny any questions about any phase/cloak technology once out, and once they can get the hell out of there, Picard can deal with the situation strictly between himself and Starfleet?

Because it was not an offer on the table. The offer on the table was that the Romulans would beam the entire Enterprise crew aboard the Romulan vessel, take them back to Romulus as "Guests" for a while, in which case they would get both ships, any other option, as Donlago pointed out above would likely result in "Accidental" destruction or disabling of the Enterprise which would end in the same result