The overblown cliche of "gritty DS9" and "bland" TNG

[Kegek]

Navaros said:
Agree with the first season of DS9 being bland like TNG. But that's because Berman was on the DS9 show making it that way. Not because those who took over running the show in later seasons would have chose to do it that way.

Berman was an executive producer for all seven seasons, the only person to be one. True, he was also executive producer of VOY for five of those seasons... but executive producer of TNG for the first two as well. So his presence was more or less constant. The main staff change was the departure of Piller and Behr replacing him.

 

[Anwar]

Navaros said:
I don't agree with the premise of the OP. It's not a myth. DS9 is gritty, and TNG [/i]is bland.

No way TNG had internal conflict to anywhere near the degree DS9 did.

"The myth" exists because it's true.

I also disagree with the OP saying the Ferengi episodes don't have grit. In multiple episodes Quark almost has to choose to lay down his life in order to do the honorable thing (ie: House of Quark, Bar Association). That too is grit the likes of which TNG has never approached.

Agree with the first season of DS9 being bland like TNG. But that's because Berman was on the DS9 show making it that way. Not because those who took over running the show in later seasons would have chose to do it that way.

If anything is a myth, it's Berman's lack of influence and such on DS9 and the over-influence of him on VOY. He had equal influence on both, the main difference was how much power UPN had over VOY.

That, and Berman being as "bad" for Trek as everyone keeps complaining he was, honestly they totally ignore whatever the Paramount and UPN Execs did.

 

[steveman]

Sci said:
3) On TNG, almost everyone reflected a pro-Federation point of view, and there were few character -- with the possible exception of Ro and Worf -- who reflected divergent belief systems.

And unfortunately, she didn't stick around. TNG with Ro as a regular (as I believe was conceived at one point, no?) could've been interesting.

Always found the dynamic between her and Picard to be fascinating, though. He did have a way with rehabilitating emotionally-damaged women, didn't he? Exhibit A: Tasha Yar...

 

[Kegek]

steveman said:
And unfortunately, she didn't stick around. TNG with Ro as a regular (as I believe was conceived at one point, no?) could've been interesting.

Ro was considered as a regular for both DS9 and VOY, her position was filled by Kira Nerys and B'Elanna Torres respectively.

 

[steveman]

^
Yup, that I knew. At least the talented Michelle Forbes finally got her due on BSG as Adm Cain.

 

[Kegek]

Well, my point was she was never considered as anything other than a TNG recurring character as far as I know, her offers of being a regular came from the subsequent shows.

Forbes herself turned down the DS9 and VOY opportunities, apparently she didn't want the restrictions a regular role on a TV show would entail.

 

[steveman]

^

Ah, yeah... should've made myself more clear. I knew that she willingly turned down those roles. A shame, too.

I was glad, though, as I said, to see her highlighted as Cain on BSG.

 

[Thrall]

Navaros said:
I don't agree with the premise of the OP. It's not a myth. DS9 is gritty, and TNG [/i]is bland.

No way TNG had internal conflict to anywhere near the degree DS9 did.

"The myth" exists because it's true.

I also disagree with the OP saying the Ferengi episodes don't have grit. In multiple episodes Quark almost has to choose to lay down his life in order to do the honorable thing (ie: House of Quark, Bar Association). That too is grit the likes of which TNG has never approached.

Agree with the first season of DS9 being bland like TNG. But that's because Berman was on the DS9 show making it that way. Not because those who took over running the show in later seasons would have chose to do it that way.

Completely agree. I've been watching DS9 again with my roommate, introducing him to it. I also bought season 7 of TNG and have been watching that. It's still a damn good show. Alot of it still looks modern, not dated at all. But compared to DS9 it's pretty safe, predictable, and fluffy. The overbearing political correctness really cripples it imo.

By the time he made TNG Roddenberry had become a complete pacifist pantywaist, and it really shows. There was more action in "Way of The Warrior" then all the episodes of TNG combined. Granted, TNG is a different beast in the fact that it's more of a philosophical drama then anything. And that's all well and good. But there's a time, for me at least, when being poignant gets old and I just want to see shit get blow up TOS style. The banter between characters is also way better, and there's lots of great comedy in DS9. So that show has more appeal to me then TNG does.

It focused on war, religion, character conflict, serialized storytelling, and anti-political correctness. Roddenberry probably wouldn't have liked DS9 as he was totally against all of these. But that's probably why it was so damn good. If anything the success of NuBSG and The 4400, along with the failure of Enterprise, now validate Moore and Behr's vision as being more relevant and expose Roddenberry's as outdated. Sorry if that sounds like sacrilege but that's the way I see it.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Thrall said:
There was more action in "Way of The Warrior" then all the episodes of TNG combined.

There was more action in "Way of the Warrior" than TNG, TOS and the movies up to that point combined.

That's what better technology does for TV. Allows you to add more FX to be seen, instead of just being talked about (Battle of Wolf 359, for example), for cheaper. And with the money saved on that, you can pay for more extras to invade the space station for crappy writing to allow Kira to take on the big warrior's of the galaxy (just kidding... sort of...)

Besides... when does sci-fi action equal "gritty"?
Maybe some people are misunderstanding the definitions used in this thread.

 

[Anwar]

Thrall said:

Navaros said:
I don't agree with the premise of the OP. It's not a myth. DS9 is gritty, and TNG [/i]is bland.

No way TNG had internal conflict to anywhere near the degree DS9 did.

"The myth" exists because it's true.

I also disagree with the OP saying the Ferengi episodes don't have grit. In multiple episodes Quark almost has to choose to lay down his life in order to do the honorable thing (ie: House of Quark, Bar Association). That too is grit the likes of which TNG has never approached.

Agree with the first season of DS9 being bland like TNG. But that's because Berman was on the DS9 show making it that way. Not because those who took over running the show in later seasons would have chose to do it that way.

Completely agree. I've been watching DS9 again with my roommate, introducing him to it. I also bought season 7 of TNG and have been watching that. It's still a damn good show. Alot of it still looks modern, not dated at all. But compared to DS9 it's pretty safe, predictable, and fluffy. The overbearing political correctness really cripples it imo.

By the time he made TNG Roddenberry had become a complete pacifist pantywaist, and it really shows. There was more action in "Way of The Warrior" then all the episodes of TNG combined. Granted, TNG is a different beast in the fact that it's more of a philosophical drama then anything. And that's all well and good. But there's a time, for me at least, when being poignant gets old and I just want to see shit get blow up TOS style. The banter between characters is also way better, and there's lots of great comedy in DS9. So that show has more appeal to me then TNG does.

It focused on war, religion, character conflict, serialized storytelling, and anti-political correctness. Roddenberry probably wouldn't have liked DS9 as he was totally against all of these. But that's probably why it was so damn good. If anything the success of NuBSG and The 4400, along with the failure of Enterprise, now validate Moore and Behr's vision as being more relevant and expose Roddenberry's as outdated. Sorry if that sounds like sacrilege but that's the way I see it.

Well, let's not forget Michael Piller's role in in DS9 (co-creator, got Behr in as a successor for him) and his own success (Dead Zone). Modern Trek would've been a lot less without him.

 

[Thrall]

Well, let's not forget Michael Piller's role in in DS9 (co-creator, got Behr in as a successor for him) and his own success (Dead Zone). Modern Trek would've been a lot less without him.

I agree. Pillar was the man. The guy deserves as much praise as anyone. But I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of the Pillar/Berman years of DS9. There were alot of good stories, but it was just so by the numbers and safe compared to later seasons. Season 1 is almost unwatchable imo. And Season's 2 and 3 were a big improvement, but still rather cookie cutter imo. Behr, Moore, and Wolfe are the reason people love that show as they are the guys that gave The Federation it's balls back.

That's what better technology does for TV. Allows you to add more FX to be seen, instead of just being talked about (Battle of Wolf 359, for example), for cheaper.

Good point, but as I recall Babylon 5, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and Xena all had similar budgets and they were always good at finding new and cheap ways to keep people excited. Besides, TOS had it's fair share of bare knuckle brawls to keep me interested.

And with the money saved on that, you can pay for more extras to invade the space station for crappy writing to allow Kira to take on the big warrior's of the galaxy (just kidding... sort of...)

How is a former highly-trained resistance soldier holding her own against a bunch of Klingon grunts "bad writing"?

Besides... when does sci-fi action equal "gritty"?
Maybe some people are misunderstanding the definitions used in this thread.

Because more often then not it usually is. Star Wars. Aliens. Bladerunner. The Matrix. Highlander. I wouldn't consider any of those overly light and happy.

 

[JD]

Kegek Kringle said:

steveman said:
And unfortunately, she didn't stick around. TNG with Ro as a regular (as I believe was conceived at one point, no?) could've been interesting.

Ro was considered as a regular for both DS9 and VOY, her position was filled by Kira Nerys and B'Elanna Torres respectively.

At least we have finally gotten the character as a regular on the post-finale DS9 books (she takes over for Odo after he goes back to his people). She also get's involved in one of the more unexpected Trek (sort of) relationships.

 

[UnknownSample]

In response to original post: There is no "overblown cliche", just people who happen to notice that the majority of the time (not all the time), Next Gen was more bland and safe, and that DS9 generally had more adult drama, was more challenging to viewers. I don't think anyone says all Next Gen was one certain way, or that DS9 was always some other very different way. Next Gen had its great moments, but overall, the standard was much higher for DS9. It kept surprising and pushing boundaries. Next Gen settled into a monotonous groove, with painfully obvious 'messages'.

There's been so much Next Gen worship for so many years, that's it's a little hard to see it as something being "bashed".

As for showing "better" humans... the fact that DS9 deals with flaws and human frailties does not in any way go against the Trek idea of evolved humanity. DS9 shows these more evolved 24th century humans dealing with serious challenges to their principles and upbringing. The DS9 regular characters aren't somehow more "flawed" than Picard and his crew. They do have more complicated situations that test their Star Fleet principles though. Next Gen characters usually seemed to coast through their episodes without getting their feathers ruffled too much. (Sorry, it's late, my wording is going downhill.)

 

[CaptJimboJones]

Anwar said:
If anything is a myth, it's Berman's lack of influence and such on DS9 and the over-influence of him on VOY. He had equal influence on both, the main difference was how much power UPN had over VOY.

That, and Berman being as "bad" for Trek as everyone keeps complaining he was, honestly they totally ignore whatever the Paramount and UPN Execs did.

Thank you for pointing this out. Too often it seems that whenever someone points out that Berman was co-creator and producer of DS9, the chorus shrieks that "he wasn't really involved!!!" And yet when one criticizes DS9 (particularly the early seasons, which IMO were mostly crap) the chorus moans "well that was Berman's fault!!"

Generally it seems that Berman gets too much criticism than he deserves and not nearly enough praise that he's legitimately earned, particularly when it comes to DS9.

 

[DiverDansGirl]

I didn't like TNG much. The character's were stuck up snobs. DS9 less so. Besides ST characters don't have mind's of thier own. they follow the leader. Star Trek did away with sin. That's why ST won't get too gritty and The romance Sucks.

 

[Nerroth]

You know, after watching a re-run of 'Q, Who' recently - as well as reading The Buried Age not so long ago (not canon, I know, but it damn well may as well be, it's so good!) I get the impression that, aside from the situational differences between TNG and DS9 (one set on the Federation's trophy ship, filled with officers who worked damned hard to get there and who have an entire fleet's worth of replacements just dying to fill their shoes - the other set on an outcast Cardassian station that pretty much gets treated as a curious anomaly until it turns out there's a gigantic Dominion on the far side of the wormhole...) that the two series portray the sea change in situations, and societal moods, that the Federation and its neighbours in the Alpha-Beta Quadrant were going through.


At the start of TNG's time, things were going well for the Federation - the Federation had exploded in size and number of members (and candidate planets), the Khitomer Accords were going strong, the Romulans were quiet, the Tholians, Breen and others were keeping to themselves, the Cardassians were a local threat at best (albeit one which made those fleet captains assigned to the Cardassian front somewhat more hard-bitten than those assigned to more exploration-oriented fleets), and the new Galaxy-class looked set to lead the UFP into a new era of progress and exploration.

Look at how Picard speaks to Q in 'Q, Who?' in Ten-Forward, alongside Guinan - when Q points out that it's still a big galaxy, and far too soon for the Federation to wallow in self-satisfied hubris, and Guinan keeps quiet, but knows/fears precisely what it is that Q might be referring to, Picard blows him off, and proudly proclaims that he and his ship, his crew, and his federation of planets, is ready for anything.


So what does Q do? Take the ship on a little journey to J-25.

And it is Picard who has to plead with Q to save the Enterprise - only now the Borg are coming.

(Here's an idea - what if the Borg knew about Q's presence, and decided to send that cube to Earth precisely because they witnessed Q make the funny-looking primitive vessel scoot off to their original location? After all, if those fickle, yet powerful beings of the Continuum, who are so inconveniently hard to assimilate, have an interest in humans, why not go and find out why?)


It's only glimpsed at here and there, with the renewed Romulan assertiveness, the Klingon civil war, the assault on Sector 001 by the Borg, and the rise of the Cardassian issue, but the signs are there to see that complacency could well end up being a dangerous, maybe even fatal mistake for the UFP to make...

...and see the (to my mind, quite intentional) crossover from one era into another, as the Next Generation ends at the same time as the episode 'The Jem'hadar' - in which the Odyssey is lost, the colonies and vessels sent by the A-B powers to the GQ are shown as being destroyed/enslaved, and the Bajoran wormhole turned from being a conduit for a great wave of exploration into a route by which the largest, most advanced, most powerful and most expansionist known superpower in the Gamma Quadrant can launch a full-scale invasion of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant.


Interesting times.


TNG and DS9 are windows into a critical time for the Federation - and as they are, fit well together.

I only wish that when Voyager made its contacts with Earth, that more was made of the changed political and societal landscape post-Dominion War (and a good reason given for why Voyager had left DS9 for the Badlands after the Dominion had been discovered, and even had Jem'hadar ships in its flight training programs, yet the existence of the Dominion still comes as a complete shock when contact is re-established) - but oh well.

 

[EEE]

sonak said:
It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

(I'm new to this BBS and only sought it out after actually watching DS9 recently. But I am most certainly not new to Star Trek.)

Interestingly enough, your post just perpetuated that "myth" by alerting myself to it. I agree with the "myth" now that I've heard it. It rings true for me. No matter the minor points for either side of the issue. You've put a word to the majority of why TNG never "did it" for me. I had thought it was my reluctance to accept anything that was not TOS (It took me 20 years to actually watch all of TNG). TNG was better than I originally thought when it aired. But the word "bland" is now the quitessential description of the series as a whole, for me.

But that's really only part of your "myth." The "gritty" part doesn't work for me anymore than it did when I tried DS9 when it aired. It had been touted at conventions as "going to be gritty, darker"..."the underside of the Federation," etc, etc. When it aired it struck me as none of those. Had the whole series looked like the Tarok Nor (sp?) flashbacks, then I would've gone with those descriptions.

 

[trevanian]

M'rk, son of Mogh said:

Thrall said:
There was more action in "Way of The Warrior" then all the episodes of TNG combined.

There was more action in "Way of the Warrior" than TNG, TOS and the movies up to that point combined.

That's what better technology does for TV. Allows you to add more FX to be seen, instead of just being talked about (Battle of Wolf 359, for example), for cheaper. And with the money saved on that

You're way way off in your reasoning here. WotW was done using the tried-and-true techniques that had been getting refined for the past several years, motion control on TV trek. In fact, it is probably the biggest hurrah for the established tech, before Trek started getting more and more immersed in less-credible (but more cost-effective) CG.

they didn't save any money on WAY, it was not even a pattern show, it was considered a second pilot and cost off the charts. They had to use two entire vfx crews to get it done.

I don't think the cliche is a cliche; I think it is accurate. The occasional instance on TNG of something being hard-edged stands out as the exception, and as such is kind of like a thumb that has been hit with a hammer, it throbs in memory (which is why I love Ronnie Cox so much on the show.) SYMBIOSIS felt real for a moment at the end as well, and there are other moments, but often when TNG tried to be 'real' it just seemed to undermine its own semiutopian premise. To me, Riker/Shelby felt like 80s era conflict from a nighttime soap, but compared to the lack of interpersonal conflict in the rest of TNG, it seems very biting.

DS9 didn't look as gritty as it should have, but it did have the feel often enough. And maybe real is better than gritty, since the characters were folks I could often relate to in terms of motivation, whereas TNG's folks were often idealized/stylized beyond my ability to relate to them.

 

[UnknownSample]

Look at how Picard speaks to Q in 'Q, Who?' in Ten-Forward, alongside Guinan - when Q points out that it's still a big galaxy, and far too soon for the Federation to wallow in self-satisfied hubris, and Guinan keeps quiet, but knows/fears precisely what it is that Q might be referring to, Picard blows him off, and proudly proclaims that he and his ship, his crew, and his federation of planets, is ready for anything.

"Q Who" is a great episode, isn't it? My favorite Next Gen. Really good post, Nerroth.

 

[Nerroth]

*Is pleased that someone noticed the post*

Thank you!