The overblown cliche of "gritty DS9" and "bland" TNG

[Red Ranger]

People,

I've only read some of the comments here, but I still want to add my two cents. I agree with the title of this thread that the cliche of DSN as gritty and TNG as bland is overblown.

Sure, TNG is the more optimistic of the two. But that doesn't mean there weren't good, heart-wrenching stories were there was conflict, like "Chain of Command" and "Symbiosis." And there were plenty of boring early eps of DSN like "If Wishes Were Horses," and many of the later dumb Ferengi eps were hardly gritty.

DSN came as close as any of the other ST shows to being a bit like "The Dirty Dozen." TNG leaned toward being "The Brady Bunch" at times, but other times I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Speaking of "Symbiosis," Picard had to make a hard choice in that one: let one race suffer short-term so that in the long term they could break their addiction. Not an easy choice to make.

Red Ranger

 

[VulcanJedi]

sonak said:
It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

But wait... didn't Worf KILL Duras in an honor fight against Duras? What about Riker's past as revealed in "Pegasus?" Or his troubled relationship with his Dad? For that matter Picard's relationship with his brother, Deanna's with Lwaxana, etc.

I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

TNG was a great show. DS9 is a fine show. But compared to TOS; TNG is bland and DS9 is blander.

As for TRUE GRIT Rooster Cogburn style; there is no question; Shat and company 1966-1968.


You want grit? Just take any close up on Leonard Nimoy's sweaty brow from the TOS. Spock's Pon-Far riddled brow during any given dramatic emotion-jacked moment from TOS is all the grit you need. Depression era writers, chop wood to fuel the house; TOS. Versus TNG's 1980s style group therapy, central air, pink Izod shirted, carpeted office, work place safety video.

TOS; throw Southern Comfort ala "He's Dead Jim" whiskey drinkin' Deforestation Kelly's Heroes, saw the leg off and bite the bullet Doc and you gots youself sum' grit.

There's more grit between Scotty's teeth than in all of Picard's, Riker's and Worf 's dirty laundry combined. Well, maybe not Worfs.

 

[indranee]

^good point.

 

[greenmystik]

I thought this was about TNG and DS9???

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

zenophite said:
If i was in charge of the zoo any reference to "gritty" or "dark" by entertainment people would be punishable by 10 lashes in the public square.

I think I raised a somewhat softer argument against "dark" SF in general, the only examples I could find were Neon Genesis Evangelion (which built a kind of nihilistic feeling up to the very end) and Millenium which was a sort of "Law and Order: Serial Killer unit".

DS9 and NuBSG have darker sets, but any sort of idea that they're harrowing to watch, or "gritty", are silly.

 

[blockaderunner]

sonak said:
The characters on TNG, in contrast, were all Starfleet. It took place on a Starfleet ship, not a space station with civilians on it. That's a huge difference.

So? To use myself as an example, I'm an American who served in the U.S. Navy on board an American ship with other Americans. We didn't always agree and got on each other's nerves more than once. But we worked out our problems and united for similar goals. Having the TNG crew do that now and then wouldn't have spat in the face of the Great Bird's pie in the sky fantasy.

 

[Anwar]

They were moments like that on TNG, like with Barclay or "Arsenal of Freedom" where LaForge didn't get along with that LT in Engineering, or Kosinski, Maddox, Hobson, etc.

It may not have been on the same ship, but there were moments of character conflict.

 

[jimbtnp2]

VulcanJedi said:

sonak said:
It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

But wait... didn't Worf KILL Duras in an honor fight against Duras? What about Riker's past as revealed in "Pegasus?" Or his troubled relationship with his Dad? For that matter Picard's relationship with his brother, Deanna's with Lwaxana, etc.

I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

TNG was a great show. DS9 is a fine show. But compared to TOS; TNG is bland and DS9 is blander.

As for TRUE GRIT Rooster Cogburn style; there is no question; Shat and company 1966-1968.


You want grit? Just take any close up on Leonard Nimoy's sweaty brow from the TOS. Spock's Pon-Far riddled brow during any given dramatic emotion-jacked moment from TOS is all the grit you need. Depression era writers, chop wood to fuel the house; TOS. Versus TNG's 1980s style group therapy, central air, pink Izod shirted, carpeted office, work place safety video.

TOS; throw Southern Comfort ala "He's Dead Jim" whiskey drinkin' Deforestation Kelly's Heroes, saw the leg off and bite the bullet Doc and you gots youself sum' grit.

There's more grit between Scotty's teeth than in all of Picard's, Riker's and Worf 's dirty laundry combined. Well, maybe not Worfs.

Agreed

And to say DS9 was gritty with teletuby-like Ferengi and Vic Fontaine too just doesn't stick

 

[jimbtnp2]

Anwar said:
They were moments like that on TNG, like with Barclay or "Arsenal of Freedom" where LaForge didn't get along with that LT in Engineering, or Kosinski, Maddox, Hobson, etc.

It may not have been on the same ship, but there were moments of character conflict.

Agreed, in general the Roddenberry season had the most TOS-style drama, despite GR retoric he knew the story llimitations of a perfect crew, hence they weren't so perfeect under his watch in S1

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The Titan novels are how TNG should've been, where the conflict doesn't come from petty bickering or who's sleeping with whom, but from a character's worldview/cultural perspective coming into conflict with another character's worldview/cultural perspective and how those viewpoints can defer on the right course of action.

And yet, on TNG, we got the most soap opera-like character drama -- a long-lost twin (Lore, Tom Riker), a lost love (K'heylar), a unknown child (Alexander), etc.

 

[Anwar]

jimbtnp2 said:

VulcanJedi said:

sonak said:
It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

But wait... didn't Worf KILL Duras in an honor fight against Duras? What about Riker's past as revealed in "Pegasus?" Or his troubled relationship with his Dad? For that matter Picard's relationship with his brother, Deanna's with Lwaxana, etc.

I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

TNG was a great show. DS9 is a fine show. But compared to TOS; TNG is bland and DS9 is blander.

As for TRUE GRIT Rooster Cogburn style; there is no question; Shat and company 1966-1968.


You want grit? Just take any close up on Leonard Nimoy's sweaty brow from the TOS. Spock's Pon-Far riddled brow during any given dramatic emotion-jacked moment from TOS is all the grit you need. Depression era writers, chop wood to fuel the house; TOS. Versus TNG's 1980s style group therapy, central air, pink Izod shirted, carpeted office, work place safety video.

TOS; throw Southern Comfort ala "He's Dead Jim" whiskey drinkin' Deforestation Kelly's Heroes, saw the leg off and bite the bullet Doc and you gots youself sum' grit.

There's more grit between Scotty's teeth than in all of Picard's, Riker's and Worf 's dirty laundry combined. Well, maybe not Worfs.

Agreed

And to say DS9 was gritty with teletuby-like Ferengi and Vic Fontaine too just doesn't stick

You can be gritty and still have some non-gritty stuff.

 

[TGTheodore]

I see "gritty" and "bland" as pertaining to the art direction and lighting.

TNG is spic and span and cleanly lit. DS9 is darker, literally, with dirtier sets and much more textured lighting.

The "look" of a show does a lot more to suggest its content than its content actually does.

--Ted

 

[DWF]

TG TheRedNosed said:
I see "gritty" and "bland" as pertaining to the art direction and lighting.

TNG is spic and span and cleanly lit. DS9 is darker, literally, with dirtier sets and much more textured lighting.

The "look" of a show does a lot more to suggest its content than its content actually does.

--Ted

The DS9 sets weren't all that dirty or darkly lit to me in fact if anything the general areas of the station were quite brightly lit and the station was only a mess in the pilot. And with DS9's performance in the ratings whatever darkness the show projected was a turnoff for the viewers.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I just watched "I, Borg" last night.

And man, if ever there was an episode to show character conflict, this was it. Picard wouldn't let anyone tell him how wrong he was about the plan against the Borg. Geordi, Guinan, Crusher... there was a definate (yet still very professional) conflict going on between views here.

I guess characters have to be punching each other's lights out to settle a disagreement in order for it not to be bland? I'm not sure.

 

[jimbtnp2]

Anwar said:

jimbtnp2 said:

VulcanJedi said:

sonak said:
It may seem I'm a newbie, but I'm a loooong time lurker, and I know that this board leans to DS9 overall. That's cool. I like DS9. I happen to like TNG the best, but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the post-this board seems to follow the line that DS9 showcased flawed, "realistic" characters while TNGs were overly bland and almost perfect.

But wait... didn't Worf KILL Duras in an honor fight against Duras? What about Riker's past as revealed in "Pegasus?" Or his troubled relationship with his Dad? For that matter Picard's relationship with his brother, Deanna's with Lwaxana, etc.

I don't want to make this a boring list thread. There's also conflict between characters if that's what the fuss is about. Does the episode "Ethics" ring a bell?

I'm more intterested in why this myth persists. If you want to use real examples of difference between the two series, then use things like serialized storytelling, better developed recurring characters, etc. But this exaggerrated take on TNG as being perfect and without conflict has no basis in the show.

TNG was a great show. DS9 is a fine show. But compared to TOS; TNG is bland and DS9 is blander.

As for TRUE GRIT Rooster Cogburn style; there is no question; Shat and company 1966-1968.


You want grit? Just take any close up on Leonard Nimoy's sweaty brow from the TOS. Spock's Pon-Far riddled brow during any given dramatic emotion-jacked moment from TOS is all the grit you need. Depression era writers, chop wood to fuel the house; TOS. Versus TNG's 1980s style group therapy, central air, pink Izod shirted, carpeted office, work place safety video.

TOS; throw Southern Comfort ala "He's Dead Jim" whiskey drinkin' Deforestation Kelly's Heroes, saw the leg off and bite the bullet Doc and you gots youself sum' grit.

There's more grit between Scotty's teeth than in all of Picard's, Riker's and Worf 's dirty laundry combined. Well, maybe not Worfs.

Agreed

And to say DS9 was gritty with teletuby-like Ferengi and Vic Fontaine too just doesn't stick

You can be gritty and still have some non-gritty stuff.

true, but the ferengi episodes were a farce. Almost a parody of ST itself, light hearted (ala ST IV is one thing, is is a joke)

 

[Spider]

M'rk, son of Mogh said:
I just watched "I, Borg" last night.

And man, if ever there was an episode to show character conflict, this was it. Picard wouldn't let anyone tell him how wrong he was about the plan against the Borg. Geordi, Guinan, Crusher... there was a definate (yet still very professional) conflict going on between views here.

I guess characters have to be punching each other's lights out to settle a disagreement in order for it not to be bland? I'm not sure.

There was character conflict in various episodes of all seven seasons of TNG. If one chooses not to see that, so be it.

 

[Kegek]

Sgt. Scrooge said:
There was character conflict in various episodes of all seven seasons of TNG. If one chooses not to see that, so be it.

Maybe because it's more of a subtle character conflict? Picard agonises and lectures. Sisko punches people. It's easy to say DS9 has character conflict when Sisko sends Garak reeling across the floor. Yes, before anyone says anything, Sisko also agonises and lectures. But Picard doesn't go around punching people, and it takes a lot for him to really lose his temper - and when he does, it means even bigger speeches.

Also, DS9 has more obviously delinated ideological positions. The one person on TNG with a different philosophy than the rest of the cast was Worf (and boy, did he really rub it in on occasion - "The Enemy"), while DS9 has characters from many backgrounds and competing philosophies, making character conflict far more apparent.. though arguably less realistic. I get into petty squabbles with people I know, but they're not often based on the comparitive virtues of a materialistic versus an honor-bound lifestyle.

But they could be about concerns that the boss is showing his co-worker and lover a bit of special preference, a la "Lessons".

Also, to tie into my first point... when I get angry I speechify too. I find that easier to relate to than Sisko's more violent approach.

 

[DWF]

Maybe because it's more of a subtle character conflict? Picard agonises and lectures. Sisko punches people. It's easy to say DS9 has character conflict when Sisko sends Garak reeling across the floor. Yes, before anyone says anything, Sisko also agonises and lectures. But Picard doesn't go around punching people, and it takes a lot for him to really lose his temper - and when he does, it means even bigger speeches.

Picard took out a terrorist in The High Ground on the bridge of the Enterprise, he also fought his own brother in the mud in Family, punched out a Frengi in Captain's Holiday and took on two Klingons in Sins Of The Father. He's been in as many fights as Sisko has in the seven years of either show.

The lack of speeched on DS9 was alittle worrisome since I reallly loved Sisko's speech to Winn in The Hands Of The Prophets.

 

[Kegek]

DWF said:
Picard took out a terrorist in The High Ground on the bridge of the Enterprise, he also fought his own brother in the mud in Family, punched out a Frengi in Captain's Holiday and took on two Klingons in Sins Of The Father. He's been in as many fights as Sisko has in the seven years of either show.

Honestly, with the exception of "Family" those were actual battles. And even in "Family" it was a moment of catharsis. Sisko has floored Q because he bugged him and Garak because he found his unethical solution appalling.

The lack of speeched on DS9 was alittle worrisome since I reallly loved Sisko's speech to Winn in The Hands Of The Prophets.

Or his speech in "The Maquis".

 

[Navaros]

I don't agree with the premise of the OP. It's not a myth. DS9 is gritty, and TNG [/i]is bland.

No way TNG had internal conflict to anywhere near the degree DS9 did.

"The myth" exists because it's true.

I also disagree with the OP saying the Ferengi episodes don't have grit. In multiple episodes Quark almost has to choose to lay down his life in order to do the honorable thing (ie: House of Quark, Bar Association). That too is grit the likes of which TNG has never approached.

Agree with the first season of DS9 being bland like TNG. But that's because Berman was on the DS9 show making it that way. Not because those who took over running the show in later seasons would have chose to do it that way.