The Outcast
- Thread starter Taelon
- Start date
At the end, didn't it seem like Riker just gave up far too easily and too quickly?
Soren was obviously not speaking for herself (after "progamming"), you'd think he would at least attempt to have the medical staff on the Enterprise, or Deanna, give back to Soren the ability of choice.
Soren was obviously not speaking for herself (after "progamming"), you'd think he would at least attempt to have the medical staff on the Enterprise, or Deanna, give back to Soren the ability of choice.
Look at the final scene with an objective eye, that is as if you haven't seen the episode before and just saw this part by accident. I bet you wouldn't have guessed that she had been brain washed, because she seems perfectly normal. That's my gripe about this episode. She looks too normal, as if the writers wanted to keep their asses covered.
It's not the point of this discussion, which you are missing.
Excuse me?
You claimed that she looked too normal after being brainwashed, I suggested that brainwashing was designed to make the victim act and feel like they haven't been psychologically compromised.
I've been following the discussion since post #1.
That's circular reasoning. Most people who look normal ARE normal, not brainwashed.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Normal people are normal, brainwashed people act like they're normal. They're not going to run around screaming "MUST... ACT... SANE..." or have other obvious symptoms of brainwashing. They'd never work as sleeper agents or anything, otherwise.
The writers wanted to keep their asses covered, so they created a situation where both sides of the issue felt like they were vindicated. Why do you keep missing this?
I'm not missing it. I know that both sides can use the way the actors portrayed their characters to support their claims, either pro or con. I was reminding you that in sci-fi, brainwasing is insidious with no obvious signs of its corruptive reprogramming.
We can do without the snarky commentary, OK.
What you call "brainwashed" could easily be called "cured" by people favorable to that kind of procedure. The point I am trying to make is that the episode caters to both sides of this issue.
Your argument only confirms half of mine, it doesn't disprove the other half. I've been desperately trying to get that message through for the last dozen of posts or so.
To clarify, WE know that Soren has been cured because we are aware of her previous personality and sexuality, but an in-Universe character meeting Soren for the first time would have no indication that such illness had ever taken place.
Better?
I am sorry but, that's not what I am talking about.
There are two (opposite) ways of looking at this episode:
1)- This is an example of a terrible thing done to a person, under the pretext of doing her a service.
2)- This is an example of a deviant being cured of her deviancy by adequate therapy.
The episode doesn't side clearly enough with either one of these positions.
Plus there are plot holes in this episode big enough to fly a starship through them.
For instance: If the society is populated with androgynous people and if two androgynous persons are allowed to sleep together without raising suspicions (as we are told) then how can anyone know, if one of said pair defines "himself" as male and the other one as "female". What exactly is the deviant behavior here? IOW, The society allows you to sleep with every one as it is!! What exactly is the restriction here?
I got all that and I agree with you.
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. My original response to your comment:
Was based on your usage of the phrase "wouldn't have guessed that she had been brain washed, because she seems perfectly normal". Brainwashing is intended to make the victim act perfectly normal to outside observers, otherwise it would be pretty useless as brainwashing.
This comment wasn't related to the episode, the J'naii culture or even Star Trek in general, but to the concept of "brainwashing" as used in science fiction. Whether Soren had been brainwashed or cured of a psychological disorder that her species is susceptible to, has no relation to my response to your comment about brainwashing, as I was talking about the process and not the motivation.
I hope that's helped clear things up?
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. My original response to your comment:
Was based on your usage of the phrase "wouldn't have guessed that she had been brain washed, because she seems perfectly normal". Brainwashing is intended to make the victim act perfectly normal to outside observers, otherwise it would be pretty useless as brainwashing.
This comment wasn't related to the episode, the J'naii culture or even Star Trek in general, but to the concept of "brainwashing" as used in science fiction. Whether Soren had been brainwashed or cured of a psychological disorder that her species is susceptible to, has no relation to my response to your comment about brainwashing, as I was talking about the process and not the motivation.
I hope that's helped clear things up?
I see.
But on a different issue, not related to our current discussion.
This is an androgynous society, right?
And that means that anyone can choose anyone as a sleeping partner. So what exactly is the problem here?
That they are allowed to have too many different partners? I don't get it. too much sexual freedom?
Seriously!
It is a rather silly concept. It seems to stem from the belief that their species' androgyny is somehow superior or more evolved.
They must deem gender identification to be some kind of throwback to a "lesser" time in their history. But then Star Trek oftens seems to misunderstand what evolution is. *cough*Threshold*cough* *cough*Dear Doctor*cough*
For all we know, it may be actually very common for J'naii to associate with one gender, but their treatment for this is so pervasive and ingrained into their very culture that they no longer see it as a common trait and is now something they all believe is rare and shameful.
They must deem gender identification to be some kind of throwback to a "lesser" time in their history. But then Star Trek oftens seems to misunderstand what evolution is. *cough*Threshold*cough* *cough*Dear Doctor*cough*
For all we know, it may be actually very common for J'naii to associate with one gender, but their treatment for this is so pervasive and ingrained into their very culture that they no longer see it as a common trait and is now something they all believe is rare and shameful.
No, that's not my question. Let me rephrase it:
How is a society that doesn't differentiate individuals as male or female, restrictive? IOW, she's already allowed to sleep with whomever she wants.
People are not categorized as male or female, ok? Therefore, they are NOT restricted to sleep with only part of the population. They can sleep with whomever they want.
What freedom is she missing?
Similar threads
