Okay...now maybe I'm the one being obtuse, but how is that functionally different from "I don't believe in a higher power"?
Spoilers THE ORVILLE S1, E12: "MAD IDOLATRY" - SEASON FINALE
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Okay...now maybe I'm the one being obtuse, but how is that functionally different from "I don't believe in a higher power"?
"Don't believe" can't be made logically equivalent to "Believe." Atheism is not, at base, a "belief."
Nor do I believe atheism is a belief of any sort, though some would claim otherwise.
Are we really talking about the difference between "I have no belief in a higher power" and "I do not believe in a higher power"? Because to me, that sounds like a difference that makes no difference. Or is the heart of the issue whether someone's actively choosing not to believe?
Are we really talking about the difference between "I have no belief in a higher power" and "I do not believe in a higher power"? Because to me, that sounds like a difference that makes no difference. Or is the heart of the issue whether someone's actively choosing not to believe?
Well, "higher power" is a rather nebulous spiritual concept. I'm not sure that everyone's definition of it can be mapped directly on to the idea of a deity.
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So, I just bopped over to Wikipedia, the unchallenged source of absolutely accurate information about Everything as researched and vetted by whoever has an Internet connection and time to kill.
The section of "Higher Power" labeled "Correlates Of Belief" might be of interest in regard to this discussion.
The entry attributes the coinage of the term to the 12 Step Recovery movement founded in America in the mid-1930s, but I'm not sure that's absolutely accurate even if literally true - William James, in his 1902 Varieties Of Religious Experience, uses the phrase "higher powers" throughout, most notably in his summary chapter:
William Griffith Wilson, the primary author of the 1939 book Alcoholics Anonymous where the phrase "Higher Power" first (?) appears in the context of the 12 Step movement acknowledged inspiration and a debt to James's book, so it's pretty likely that James, if anyone, deserves the credit for the term.
EDIT TO ADD:
So, I just bopped over to Wikipedia, the unchallenged source of absolutely accurate information about Everything as researched and vetted by whoever has an Internet connection and time to kill.
The section of "Higher Power" labeled "Correlates Of Belief" might be of interest in regard to this discussion.
The entry attributes the coinage of the term to the 12 Step Recovery movement founded in America in the mid-1930s, but I'm not sure that's absolutely accurate even if literally true - William James, in his 1902 Varieties Of Religious Experience, uses the phrase "higher powers" throughout, most notably in his summary chapter:
William Griffith Wilson, the primary author of the 1939 book Alcoholics Anonymous where the phrase "Higher Power" first (?) appears in the context of the 12 Step movement acknowledged inspiration and a debt to James's book, so it's pretty likely that James, if anyone, deserves the credit for the term.
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It was "good" but kind of in the middle of the pack if I were to rank the Orville episodes. Certainly not the best of the episodes.
Yes, that. An honest-to-God Atheist (
) simply doesn't care, doesn't spend any active brain power on the subject, never bothers to think about it. He/she doesn't choose not to believe (which would indicate actively spending time thinking about it), he/she simply does not believe.
Ever see Joan of Arcadia? We're watching it on DVD lately. Now THERE are some fun manifestations of the Almighty.
Based on the definitions of either belief or believe, Atheism absolutely can be a belief. If one believes, that there is no "higher power" they are believing something to be a fact.
I have not seen that one.
So if an Atheist is someone who simply doesn't believe, what would be the term for someone who considers it a choice and chooses not to?
For instance, if I as an agnostic declare one day "Screw it, I've decided I don't believe there's a possibility of a god", and that doesn't make me an atheist, what does it make me?
An anti-theist?
For instance, if I as an agnostic declare one day "Screw it, I've decided I don't believe there's a possibility of a god", and that doesn't make me an atheist, what does it make me?
An anti-theist?
For instance, if I as an agnostic declare one day "Screw it, I've decided I don't believe there's a possibility of a god", and that doesn't make me an atheist, what does it make me?
An anti-theist?
Exactly!
Atheism is not an affirmation, unlike belief. It is, simply and entirely, an absence of belief in a theistic manifestation, figure, deity, etc. It requires no evidence, no justification, nor explanation.
“I lack a belief in God” is NOT the same as “I believe there is no God”. The first is atheism. The second is an unprovable assertion. “Anti-theism” is actually a better term for what many people mistakenly identify as atheism (in particular, for those who actively, affirmatively and loudly proclaim “there is no God”).
I am an atheist. I’m not an anti-theist.
I agree, my above assertion is incorrect.
I would say anti-theism would be a belief. Atheism would not.
To hear some people talk about it, though, they're one in the same.
In my experience, most often by believers who fail to make the distinction. It also doesn’t help when media reports fail to do so as well.
As someone who doesn't believe in a god, my experience has been that many who believe there is none, don't know the distinction either. In fact many atheists and anti-atheists don't do well to paint themselves in a good light, just as many believers don't do well to paint themselves in a good light. There are too many on either side that are both horribly judgmental, ignorant of one another's opinion, and also think their crap don't stank.
of course there are many on both ends who look around and face palm themselves at the fluster cuck that goes on around them.
In short, I see little difference between the religious and non-religious in the USA,
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Exactly so.
My take on this is that agnostics acknowledge an uncertainty in knowing or an understanding that there is insufficient evidence to conclude definitively either way. However, I think it's possible to have a leaning one way or another. I suspect that there is no god, but I don't know. It's more based on Occam's Razor. However, some times I wonder. That uncertainty is the heart of being an agnostic. Atheists and theists don't have that uncertainty. They believe they can make that determination one way or the other.
Sorry, you're wrong. An absence of a belief is "I don't know." You're talking about agnostics there. Atheism states that there is no god. That *is* a belief about the state of the universe.
It is a belief. Not sure why atheists are afraid to accept that? You're stating that god (or other higher being) does not exist. I've got no problem with that, but you're clearly stating a belief. You're conflating "does not exist" with "not a belief." You can believe that something does not exist. The belief is your personal stance regarding the existence of an object.
You can believe either way or decide that you don't know. Here's the spectrum:
Atheism: Belief that a higher being does not exist.
Agnostic: Don't know whether a higher being exists. This is what a non-belief looks like.
Theism: Belief that a higher being exists.