The Original 1701 Design

[Dukhat]

They didn't even need to make different uniforms in "Among the Lotus Eaters", they could have photoshopped it. The character doesn't have to be wearing his uniform shirt later in the episode. Of course, TOS was guilty of exactly the same thing in "Friday's Child".

IIRC, all McCoy said was that he was stationed on the planet for a few months. Those 'few months' could have been any time between the events of 'WNMHGB' (where everyone wore The Cage uniforms) and McCoy's first appearance in 'The Man Trap.' Or as was mentioned before, it could have happened between seasons. I really don't see a continuity error here.

If it had been an option, I suspect they would've gladly gotten rid of the Discoprise design and replaced it with something more retro.

I don't quite agree. If they wanted the ship to look more like the TOS version, they would have done so at the start of SNW, without any explanation, just like they did with the Klingons. Instead they just reused Eaves's design and added huge front saucer windows to make the ship look even less like the TOS version.

Ironically, from the perspective of people who prize consistency in production design, memory-holing the look of the first two seasons of DSC is just compounding the problem. I, for one, would be happier if they went to the trouble of trying to integrate them and we the blue spangley uniforms and square-nacelled ships alongside SNW's new, TOS-inspired designs.

I for one am happy that they are essentially ignoring DSC. As for the ships, none of those DSC designs evoked TOS in any way. The closest tribute was the Engle, and that was only because it resembled the NX-01 from a completely different show that also looked nothing like TOS. I'd rather they showed the Kelvin from the Abrams films rather than any DSC ship.

As an artist, if I had designed the original Enterprise, I would feel Abrams and Goldsman had both massacred my design in every conceivable way. But if I had designed the original uniforms, I would feel the integrity of my design had been respected. It is this observation and subsequent belief that inspired my original post. Why the ships but not the uniforms?

Ryan Church designed the Abramsprise, and John Eaves designed the Discoprise.

 

[UssGlenn]

I don't think it was mentioned when McCoy was on Capella. He was there for a "only a few months" and that could have happened between S2/S3 (unless I missed some dialogue.)

There's no indication McCoy left the ship and came back so I don't think the writer thought we were supposed to think that.

IIRC, all McCoy said was that he was stationed on the planet for a few months. Those 'few months' could have been any time between the events of 'WNMHGB' (where everyone wore The Cage uniforms) and McCoy's first appearance in 'The Man Trap.' Or as was mentioned before, it could have happened between seasons. I really don't see a continuity error here.

Yes, I'm aware that's the usual placement, and that's fine. But really we just got lucky there's a spot in the timeline where where you can stick it. The production team just put Kelly in his usual uniform for the archival footage, they didn't intend that to mean it was his assignment just before the Enterprise. They just weren't that concerned with that level of uniform timeline minutia.

 

[blssdwlf]

There's no indication McCoy left the ship and came back so I don't think the writer thought we were supposed to think that.

Perhaps. But it can't be ruled out either. We've seen Kirk not be on the Enterprise for 3 months in "The Paradise Syndrome" so McCoy getting seconded to a planetary medical mission for a few months before "Friday's Child" is still a reasonable scenario given the uniform McCoy is wearing in the video playback.

EDIT: You're probably right that the writer didn't think we were supposed to think that but then again, since you noticed the uniform is a later one it would imply that it happened more recently than in the past. IMHO.

 

[fireproof78]

hand-props in flashbacks

Pretty sure they use the same phaser rifle.

I dunno. Seems that the uniforms were redesigned just as much as the ships. They both kept roughly the same shapes and proportions. Since the actors are still average humans in size it would make sense that the uniforms stayed the same size while ships can be adjusted up or down in size.

Yeah, the uniforms definitely got a full update. Not great, but slightly better.

The navy blue of the admiralty seems to be a reference to the Discovery uniforms.

As an artist, if I had designed the original Enterprise, I would feel Abrams and Goldsman had both massacred my design in every conceivable way. But if I had designed the original uniforms, I would feel the integrity of my design had been respected. It is this observation and subsequent belief that inspired my original post. Why the ships but not the uniforms?

But...why? Art can be inspiring as well as artists can take different directions.

I would welcome the diversity not feel insulted.

 

[aridas sofia]

An artist can believe his design was massacred and still respect the process that led to that end. The people making those decisions, beholden to producers who are themselves beholden to studios and ultimately, stockholders, apparently believe they had to do what they did. A production designer is helping visualize a script, which itself is serving the purpose of making money.

My questions have been about why those decisions are believed to be necessary to make money. Why would the viewers’ tastes have stayed relatively the same with regard to those uniforms, and changed so much with regards to the ship?

 

[fireproof78]

My questions have been about why those decisions are believed to be necessary to make money. Why would the viewers’ tastes have stayed relatively the same with regard to those uniforms, and changed so much with regards to the ship?

They are not necessary. None of art is necessary but a matter of preference. One aspect of TOS that I have long held to is that it is not perfect. It actually works very well because of the imperfections because it lends credence to the idea of livability inside the ship. However, as I studied spacecraft design and ideas the TOS design, while iconic, is one that I saw reimagined time and again, and I welcome it because it draws the eye. It shows both familiar and yet engages as something new.

The uniforms are different as well. The textures are different, the insignia much different, and the feel of the characters in them has a different styling. It all comes down to engagement with the art.

 

[Henoch]

They didn't even need to make different uniforms in "Among the Lotus Eaters", they could have photoshopped it. The character doesn't have to be wearing his uniform shirt later in the episode. Of course, TOS was guilty of exactly the same thing in "Friday's Child".

I don't think it was mentioned when McCoy was on Capella. He was there for a "only a few months" and that could have happened between S2/S3 (unless I missed some dialogue.)

Here's my order:
1. WNMHGB is over one year prior to the start of the regular series timeline. <I put it April 2265.>
2. Shortly after this, Starfleet issues new uniforms to replace the one's in service for the last 10+ years, and also resets the stardate clock. <I put it May 2265.>
3. The Enterprise goes in for a ~one year refit to get ready for its upcoming 5 YM.
4. After the uniform change, McCoy is assigned to Capella for 3 months.
5. McCoy then joins the Enterprise during the second half of the Enterprise's refit.
6. Enterprise launched on its 5 YM <Sept. 2266.>
YMMV .

 

[Ronald Held]

With SNW still filming, do we know when the stardate zero point got reset?

 

[publiusr]

If I could start Trek anew, the Maroons would be for Admirals, TMP for ground personnel, TNG 3rd season for marines...DS9 for stations, but TOS uniforms for ship crew.

The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design -

I sympathize...some things are just timeless.

Ironically...we never did get the whole Enterprise. Jefferies wanted a rounder bottom to the secondary hull (like your Balson--my fav).

The FJ gave us that--but the saucer was off.

Gene (or others) wanted the nacelle effects on the aft nacelle dome and nacelle inner sides.

A nice, true extended teardrop secondary hull --but with production saucer and nacelles---that was the intended look....it would be nice to see that all together.

 

[UssGlenn]

With SNW still filming, do we know when the stardate zero point got reset?

SNW is using the largely random "where you are and how fast you went" system of TOS, so no reset needed. The "actual" reset happens around 2324. That's about when you hit zero when counting backwards from season 1 of TNG.

 

[fireproof78]

I sympathize...some things are just timeless.

Curious.

Are new designs taking away from the old?

 

[STEPhon IT]

The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design - whether it be for Franz Joseph or TMP or DS9 or TOS-R or Disco or SNW - implies that if Matt Jefferies had designed it in 1974, 1979, 1996, 2019, or 2022, it would have been deemed somehow inadequate. I find that simultaneously interesting and odd. I get it that times change, and that what worked in 1964 might not work in a different time altered by, among other things, the mere act of what was created in 1964. But it still doesn’t set well with me. The mere fact his design was deemed suitable for preservation in the Smithsonian indicates there is something timeless about it. Later planes look different from the Wright Flyer and Spirit of St Louis because technology changed. The Enterprise model is not the product of real technology beyond, you know, pixels taking the place of plastics taking the place of wood. I’m not saying any of this is wrong or bad, just that it seems odd that this design that started it all and is so lauded is now deemed… not enough. Almost as if there is a certain lack of humility in later creators in not letting the past be to instead focus on building a new present.

Anyhow, does anyone else share this feeling?

747's still take the skies and never has the aviation community thought the design needed to be altered. Matt Jefferies Starship Enterprise design would still be as compelling today as it was in the 1960's. The sad thing is that other popular movies (2001, & Star Wars) has plagued the distortions for spacecraft designs and I can't stand the "everyone wants to be 2nd" attitude in Hollywood. We're dealing with a model community who truly love Star Wars and want everything to resemble it, its quite interesting contrast when George Lucas returned to Star Wars (The Prequels) his spacecrafts were looking more Star Trek than Star Wars.

 

[Dukhat]

Curious.

Are new designs taking away from the old?

In the case of the Discoprise, yes.

 

[fireproof78]

In the case of the Discoprise, yes.

With due respect to this opinion, how?

This is the place where I will straight up and down struggle, and sound very pedantic, but this is my struggle. If the original still exists (it does) and I can still watch it (I can) then what is taken away?

its quite interesting contrast when George Lucas returned to Star Wars (The Prequels) his spacecrafts were looking more Star Trek than Star Wars.

His property. His right.

And I say that as someone who thinks the Y-Wing is one of the best starships ever.

But it can be changed. And I welcome it because I still posses the original.

 

[Dukhat]

With due respect to this opinion, how?

This is the place where I will straight up and down struggle, and sound very pedantic, but this is my struggle. If the original still exists (it does) and I can still watch it (I can) then what is taken away?

You seem to be under the impression that I am somehow trying to sway your opinion. I am doing none of that. You are welcome to enjoy the still-existing original and still watch it, and believe nothing was taken away.

 

[fireproof78]

You seem to be under the impression that I am somehow trying to sway your opinion. I am doing none of that. You are welcome to enjoy the still-existing original and still watch it, and believe nothing was taken away.

Not at all.

I am confused and trying to understand what is taken away when the original remains? That's something that I feel is where I will always get lost with a lot of fan opinions. That somehow something is disrupted by new content and I don't get it.

This is not about changing anyone's opinion (as though an online format could do that). It's about trying to wrap my head around an extremely difficult idea for my poor, sometimes black and white, brain. Both exists. What is lost?

Norman, coordinate.

 

[Dukhat]

This is not about changing anyone's opinion (as though an online format could do that). It's about trying to wrap my head around an extremely difficult idea for my poor, sometimes black and white, brain. Both exists. What is lost?

Then I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed, because I do not need to justify my opinions to anyone.

 

[fireproof78]

Then I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed, because I do not need to justify my opinions to anyone.

It's not asking for justification.

It's asking for clarification.

As in I am seeking to understand your point of view, and others who share it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

With due respect to this opinion, how?

This is the place where I will straight up and down struggle, and sound very pedantic, but this is my struggle. If the original still exists (it does) and I can still watch it (I can) then what is taken away?


His property. His right.

And I say that as someone who thinks the Y-Wing is one of the best starships ever.

But it can be changed. And I welcome it because I still posses the original.

Absolutely, Lucas wanted to present the glory days of the republic where ships were not so industrialized but something more shinier and sleek. That is Star Trek or what I mean is, that WAS Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Absolutely, Lucas wanted to present the glory days of the republic where ships were not so industrialized but something more shinier and sleek. That is Star Trek or what I mean is, that WAS Star Trek.

More that was Flash Gordon.