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The Original 1701 Design

aridas sofia

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design - whether it be for Franz Joseph or TMP or DS9 or TOS-R or Disco or SNW - implies that if Matt Jefferies had designed it in 1974, 1979, 1996, 2019, or 2022, it would have been deemed somehow inadequate. I find that simultaneously interesting and odd. I get it that times change, and that what worked in 1964 might not work in a different time altered by, among other things, the mere act of what was created in 1964. But it still doesn’t set well with me. The mere fact his design was deemed suitable for preservation in the Smithsonian indicates there is something timeless about it. Later planes look different from the Wright Flyer and Spirit of St Louis because technology changed. The Enterprise model is not the product of real technology beyond, you know, pixels taking the place of plastics taking the place of wood. I’m not saying any of this is wrong or bad, just that it seems odd that this design that started it all and is so lauded is now deemed… not enough. Almost as if there is a certain lack of humility in later creators in not letting the past be to instead focus on building a new present.

Anyhow, does anyone else share this feeling?
 
The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design - whether it be for Franz Joseph or TMP or DS9 or TOS-R or Disco or SNW - implies that if Matt Jefferies had designed it in 1974, 1979, 1996, 2019, or 2022, it would have been deemed somehow inadequate. I find that simultaneously interesting and odd. I get it that times change, and that what worked in 1964 might not work in a different time altered by, among other things, the mere act of what was created in 1964. But it still doesn’t set well with me. The mere fact his design was deemed suitable for preservation in the Smithsonian indicates there is something timeless about it. Later planes look different from the Wright Flyer and Spirit of St Louis because technology changed. The Enterprise model is not the product of real technology beyond, you know, pixels taking the place of plastics taking the place of wood. I’m not saying any of this is wrong or bad, just that it seems odd that this design that started it all and is so lauded is now deemed… not enough. Almost as if there is a certain lack of humility in later creators in not letting the past be to instead focus on building a new present.

Anyhow, does anyone else share this feeling?
It's a television show. It's not the same Batmobile as the Adam West show anymore either, but that's just as timeless as the classic 1701. The old version is still there, but we're using a different one now.

You can recast a pretend ship just as easily as you can a character, IMHO.
 
The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design - whether it be for Franz Joseph or TMP or DS9 or TOS-R or Disco or SNW - implies that if Matt Jefferies had designed it in 1974, 1979, 1996, 2019, or 2022, it would have been deemed somehow inadequate. I find that simultaneously interesting and odd. I get it that times change, and that what worked in 1964 might not work in a different time altered by, among other things, the mere act of what was created in 1964. But it still doesn’t set well with me. The mere fact his design was deemed suitable for preservation in the Smithsonian indicates there is something timeless about it. Later planes look different from the Wright Flyer and Spirit of St Louis because technology changed. The Enterprise model is not the product of real technology beyond, you know, pixels taking the place of plastics taking the place of wood. I’m not saying any of this is wrong or bad, just that it seems odd that this design that started it all and is so lauded is now deemed… not enough. Almost as if there is a certain lack of humility in later creators in not letting the past be to instead focus on building a new present.

Anyhow, does anyone else share this feeling?
*answers this message via mobile radiotelegraphy from his model t and hopes the pneumatic relay station gets it to the bbs with full fidelity

ENJOYED TOS. STOP. SEEM TO RECALL PROBERT DOING REDSIGN WORK N 79 OR SO STOP ENJOYED THAT TOO STOP FANS LIKE TO SEE CHANGE WHAT THE CRIMINY WOULD JEFFRIES THINK OH WAIT HE WAS INVOLVED IN REFIT DESIGN TOO STOP MAYBE HE ALSO WOULD NEVER STOP

Nothing stays the same. If you like TOS the look of TOS and never want it to change, simple don't watch the other shows, find a few fan productions that keep you from getting the vapours if you really must have something new. TOS Connie looked outdated by the late 70s. It just happens to be so outdated it looks retro cool now.
 
Jefferies redesigned the ship himself for Star Trek II/Phase II, among other things adding a second bridge elevator. So, I'd have to say that Jefferies himself acknowledged that there was room for improvement.

State of the art designs are never state of the art forever.

Preservation at the Smithsonian is about recording history, especially of the historic variety, as opposed to merely historical. Being at the museum is honor, but nowhere is there an implication that there is no room for improvement. The preservation of the Wright Flyer does not imply that that's what everyone should be flying. There's no implication that all spacecraft should be Mercury capsules.

I don't have to like all redesigns (and I certainly don't) to acknowledge and believe that new artists are and should be free to adapt and therefore modify the earlier, original work (which I do). Being open to a dynamic vision is how we avoid stagnation. As with grammar, I prefer a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to art: I prefer to see what people come up with as opposed to denying the validity of an experiment before even seeing and considering the results.

The consoles in the SNW bridge are approaching the territory of being outstanding re-imaginings. Engineering is quite amazing also. Both have room for improvement, but we wouldn't have these enriching visions if we'd locked it all down to what was established 50+ years ago.
 
Jefferies redesigned the ship himself for Star Trek II/Phase II, among other things adding a second bridge elevator. So, I'd have to say that Jefferies himself acknowledged that there was room for improvement.

While I agree with you in theory, let's look at another fellow who felt that there was "room for improvement" with something he created: George Lucas. George was unhappy with his creation despite the fact that millions of people loved it. And his efforts to tweak his original work using state-of-the-art technology he didn't have back in the '70's and '80's is quite debatable as to whether any of it actually made a significant difference either to the story or to the audiences' enthusiasm for the material. Speaking for myself, there were a few additions that I felt were worthwhile, but on the whole, most of the changes he made were unnecessary.

My point: There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken. And more specifically, there's no reason to make changes to something iconic when nobody asked for or wanted any changes in the first place, despite what even the creator of that iconic thing wanted.

So in the case of the NCC-1701, I don't think anyone asked for that thing that John Eaves came up with. Heck, nobody asked for that thing that Ryan Church came up with in 2009. If someone had asked me what I wanted, I would have said to update everything to a more realistic-looking level of tech, but keep the iconic aspects of the show relatively the same. And since most of the viewing audience doesn't really care what the ship looks like, why not just keep it like how it originally was, only utilizing that new 21st century tech to make it a CGI model rather than something you have to move a camera around?

The consoles in the SNW bridge are approaching the territory of being outstanding re-imaginings. Engineering is quite amazing also. Both have room for improvement, but we wouldn't have these enriching visions if we'd locked it all down to what was established 50+ years ago.

Which is why I have always viewed SNW as being based on TOS, just like all those Christopher Nolan Batman films are based on the '60's show, the comic books, and whatever else came before it. Because implying or outright stating that they take place in the same continuity would only be logical if you didn't think your work had the ability to stand on its own merits and felt that it needed some artificial inducement in order for the audience to accept it.
 
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Jefferies redesigned the ship himself for Star Trek II/Phase II, among other things adding a second bridge elevator. So, I'd have to say that Jefferies himself acknowledged that there was room for improvement.

State of the art designs are never state of the art forever.

Seems more accurate to say that Jefferies was designing a future version of the Enterprise for Star Trek II/Phase II. He wasn't redesigning or changing the TOS Enterprise as to how she looked in "The Cage" through TOS.
 
Seems more accurate to say that Jefferies was designing a future version of the Enterprise for Star Trek II/Phase II. He wasn't redesigning or changing the TOS Enterprise as to how she looked in "The Cage" through TOS.
Future versions of the ship are in-bounds, as per the OP, quoted below, in enumerating TMP as one example of what is covered by the topic.

The fact that there has been a perceived need to change the original Enterprise design - whether it be for Franz Joseph or TMP or DS9 or TOS-R or Disco or SNW - implies that if Matt Jefferies had designed it in 1974, 1979, 1996, 2019, or 2022, it would have been deemed somehow inadequate.
My point was that Jefferies did in fact execute such a redesign.

The fact that Jefferies incorporated improvements is enough to demonstrate that he accepted the need for improvements. The in-universe viewpoint is entirely subordinate to that point.

Make no mistake, it is absurd in-universe that there would be no secondary exit to the bridge. A real world design would have been the product of many more man-hours than could be devoted to any television show. Fans realized a need that an actual design team would have uncovered before the second starship left drydock, if not before the first had.

While I agree with you in theory, let's look at another fellow who felt that there was "room for improvement" with something he created: George Lucas. George was unhappy with his creation despite the fact that millions of people loved it. And his efforts to tweak his original work using state-of-the-art technology he didn't have back in the '70's and '80's is quite debatable as to whether any of it actually made a significant difference either to the story or to the audiences' enthusiasm for the material. Speaking for myself, there were a few additions that I felt were worthwhile, but on the whole, most of the changes he made were unnecessary.

My point: There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken. And more specifically, there's no reason to make changes to something iconic when nobody asked for or wanted any changes in the first place, despite what even the creator of that iconic thing wanted.
The comparison SW97:SW77 is way more like TOS-R:TOS than SNW:TOS. There's a fundamental difference in the latter comparison. Revising a preexisting film whose individual success had already peaked, by making some relatively minor visual changes and relatively minor subplot changes, is very different from adapting a preexisting property to make entirely new films/episodes for an audience decades removed from that of the original. It's really an entirely different problem altogether.

So in the case of the NCC-1701, I don't think anyone asked for that thing that John Eaves came up with. Heck, nobody asked for that thing that Ryan Church came up with in 2009. If someone had asked me what I wanted, I would have said to update everything to a more realistic-looking level of tech, but keep the iconic aspects of the show relatively the same. And since most of the viewing audience doesn't really care what the ship looks like, why not just keep it like how it originally was, only utilizing that new 21st century tech to make it a CGI model rather than something you have to move a camera around?
I'll start with, "I don't know," I'll reiterate that I'm not onboard many of the results, but I'll also add some personal speculation regarding what some of the motivations might have been behind the artistic choices that have been made. I suspect the problem is that what's on screen must pass for "the future." A widely appreciated vision of the future made 50+ years ago (I'm speaking of TOS) has by definition influenced the present, which in turn impacts our expectation of what the actual future will look like. This is reflected in the recognition that the term retro would be appropriate when hewing closely to the TOS vision of the future. But if the artists don't want to go too retro, there is no alternative but redesign, re-imagine.

Passing for the future is not a problem that Star Wars ever had. It was always heavily retro and fantastic, never needing to lean on realism for any length of time or to any great degree. This is another important difference between SW and ST.

I also think this isn't really a glass half-empty situation. There's much in SNW that hews remarkably closely to TOS. The flip side is, of course, glass half-full.

Finally, it's worth noting that on SNW they've already hinted that time travel mechanics may have affected the flow of events. To say more probably requires spoiler coding. Although they haven't said it in relation to how things look, time travel could be the basis for explaining visual differences also; for many years it's been a somewhat popular fan theory that the events of First Contact altered the flow of time, affecting the events as portrayed in ENT, and even explaining the appearance of the Kelvinverse just prior to Nero's incursion.
 
the issue with the original 1701 is mostly down to surface detailing, not the design itself. If the original model had been given the same level of detail that the Discovery from 2001 would receive 4 years later, they might not have seen fit to refit her for the movies, though the straight nacelle supports are a hard sell.
 
The comparison SW97:SW77 is way more like TOS-R:TOS than SNW:TOS. There's a fundamental difference in the latter comparison. Revising a preexisting film whose individual success had already peaked, by making some relatively minor visual changes and relatively minor subplot changes, is very different from adapting a preexisting property to make entirely new films/episodes for an audience decades removed from that of the original. It's really an entirely different problem altogether.

I agree with you that on the surface, the comparison to TOS-R is apt. However, it doesn't change my point that there was really no reason to fundamentally change the design of the NCC-1701 for DSC/SNW and make it so drastically different from the TOS version, just, as with your example, there was really no reason to change, say, the Tholian ship in TOS-R to make it look so different from its original appearance, such as adding lots of surface detail that wasn't there before just to tout the effects of 21st century CGI technology.
 
Future versions of the ship are in-bounds, as per the OP, quoted below, in enumerating TMP as one example of what is covered by the topic.

Actually, since you referenced the OP's post, Aridas did not specify Phase II/Star Trek II. So technically that future version that you specifically mention is not in-bounds ;)
Aridas was oddly specific in the series he mentions since TMP does include a picture of the TOS Enterprise and DS9 features the TOS Enterprise in a time-travel episode. So not sure where he was going with his post regarding changing the original design as some series he mentioned incorporate the TOS Enterprise as its history while others are rewritten and visually different (thank you SNW S2E3 :) ).

My point was that Jefferies did in fact execute such a redesign.

A redesign meant as a future upgrade to the original ship.

But, if Jefferies designed the ship at the later years that Aridas mentions (instead of 1964) then Jefferies would not have known what issues he needed to improve upon as it would have be the first iteration. :)
 
“So not sure where he was going with his post regarding changing the original design as some series he mentioned incorporate the TOS Enterprise as its history while others are rewritten”…

aridas wasn’t talking about anything in universe. He was referring to the creative decision to change the design, whether that was explained in the story or ignored. Sure, we can say that Jefferies evolving the design for Phase II on the assumption the ship was refit is as honest a move as we can consider, but I am referring to the decision to make that the story. All of it. In every way, whether the change was ignored, made a part of the story, or something else. It reflects some dissatisfaction with the design. After all, a refit ship could look largely unchanged from the outside.

The point is, Bill Theiss’s uniforms have been treated as largely sacrosanct by such diverse creators as Abrams and Goldsman. Not the ship. What made those uniforms such holy writ while the ship needed drastic overhauling? What defined the identity of Star Trek more? After all, the excuse we got from Berman and Braga as to why NX-01 and Phoenix had to look the way they did was because the original Enterprise defined the look of Star Trek.

Also, as an aside, I get why this thread was moved from the TOS/TAS forum. I don’t get why it was moved to Tech. This is a discussion about artistic considerations and belongs in Art if anywhere. It has nothing to do with in-universe technology.
 
I can see everything going full circle.
Enterprise Z maybe be a splitting image of TOS' ship...back to minimalism.
 
The point is, Bill Theiss’s uniforms have been treated as largely sacrosanct by such diverse creators as Abrams and Goldsman. Not the ship. What made those uniforms such holy writ while the ship needed drastic overhauling? What defined the identity of Star Trek more?

Are you saying the uniforms Kirk, Spock and Co wore in TOS were not changed in the Abrams and Goldsman series? In the Abrams and Goldsman series they were updated with more texture and some changes in shape. You could even say they were redesigned in the same way as the Enterprise was.
 
I agree. There are plenty of people who don't care about spaceships where I could be holding a model of the TOS Enterprise next to the Enterprise-J and they would tell me they could hardly tell the difference, never mind the TOS, ST09, and SNW ships that are actually supposed to more-or-less resemble each other.

For people who aren't into clothes, you can just see red/blue/yellow shirt and black pants and take that as that, but someone who does notice those things would probably see huge differences even between the season 1/2 TOS uniforms and the season 3 ones with the different fabric. Heck, the SNW version of the Monster Maroons had pretty much one deliberate change, but it's knock-on effect made the whole thing look screwy to me (there was a pattern added to the shoulders and arms as on the SNW uniforms, which led to the flap being moved down so it was parallel with the textured panel, and that made the white shoulder strap with the clasp come down further and look droopy).
 
Are you saying the uniforms Kirk, Spock and Co wore in TOS were not changed in the Abrams and Goldsman series? In the Abrams and Goldsman series they were updated with more texture and some changes in shape. You could even say they were redesigned in the same way as the Enterprise was.

To be technically accurate, the uniform designs in DSC were about as far removed from any TOS version we saw (either the Cage versions, the regular TOS versions, or even Kirk's wraparound) as could be humanly possible. They were just generic '21st century sci-fi show' uniforms. Literally the only similarity was the Starfleet delta, which DSC chose to interpret as metal pins, not as embroidered patches like in TOS. There was little to nothing in DSC that would make anyone think it took place 10 years before TOS other than some shithead suit at CBS telling us it was. But apparently they eventually realized that the idea of making a 10-years-before-TOS prequel but having literally every aspect of the show look nothing like TOS was a huge mistake, which they started rectifying in SNW. (Nowhere near to my liking, but that's another story.)

Also, on the subject of uniforms, I just watched "Among the Lotus Eaters." Spoilers ahead:

Apparently the three crewmembers that were killed on Rigel VII in 'The Cage' wear the exact same uniforms as the present-day ones in SNW. Not the Cage uniforms (which was what they should have been wearing), not the DSC uniforms, not the later dyed DSC uniforms, but the EXACT same ones from SNW. So either they really don't care about continuity (most likely), just made a goof or didn't want to make different uniforms for this one scene (also highly likely), or that SNW takes place in a different continuity from both TOS and DSC (100% likely).

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/epics/SNW-S2/S2E4/SNW-S2E4-51.jpg
https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/epics/SNW-S2/S2E4/SNW-S2E4-52.jpg
 
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They didn't even need to make different uniforms in "Among the Lotus Eaters", they could have photoshopped it. The character doesn't have to be wearing his uniform shirt later in the episode. Of course, TOS was guilty of exactly the same thing in "Friday's Child".
 
As a whole, SNW's production design seems to be leaning in to being more congruent with TOS that DSC's, to the point of ignoring DSC whenever possible. Not using the old uniforms DSC uniforms (either version) or hand-props in flashbacks, not using the DSC ships, retooling the few things they kept; If it had been an option, I suspect they would've gladly gotten rid of the Discoprise design and replaced it with something more retro.

Ironically, from the perspective of people who prize consistency in production design, memory-holing the look of the first two seasons of DSC is just compounding the problem. I, for one, would be happier if they went to the trouble of trying to integrate them and we the blue spangley uniforms and square-nacelled ships alongside SNW's new, TOS-inspired designs.
 
By Goldsman I meant Strange New Worlds:
https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/snw-unis-group-shot-1280x960.jpg

And by Abrams I meant ST09:
https://content.propstore.com/auction/startrek/listings/75824/img01.jpg

And by Theiss I meant TOS:
https://www.yourprops.com/movieprop...he-Original-Series-Kirk-TOS-Stunt-Pants-1.jpg

As a comparison, here is the ST09 Enterprise compared with TOS:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SRvedYdQtEo/TVfoA5IfX1I/AAAAAAAACdk/aAPtsXMEoNc/s1600/Picture+012.jpg

And I believe this is a fair rendering of the original design compared to the way Goldsman wanted it reimagined, at a stated 1450 feet length.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BD22MxjXGyg/maxresdefault.jpg

I will leave it to casual observers and others to decide for themselves what was changed more, the uniforms or the ship. In fairness, you could say everything was changed about both, or nothing substantial was changed about either. I think that’s an opinion that overlooks the nature of the changes however, with the ships not only being massively rescaled - which dramatically alters all the interiors - but also every single line. The lines of the uniforms remain the same. The lines of the ships are entirely changed. And that is just a surface level comparison as might be noticed by the casual observer.

As an artist, if I had designed the original Enterprise, I would feel Abrams and Goldsman had both massacred my design in every conceivable way. But if I had designed the original uniforms, I would feel the integrity of my design had been respected. It is this observation and subsequent belief that inspired my original post. Why the ships but not the uniforms?
 
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They didn't even need to make different uniforms in "Among the Lotus Eaters", they could have photoshopped it. The character doesn't have to be wearing his uniform shirt later in the episode. Of course, TOS was guilty of exactly the same thing in "Friday's Child".

I don't think it was mentioned when McCoy was on Capella. He was there for a "only a few months" and that could have happened between S2/S3 (unless I missed some dialogue.)

By Goldsman I meant Strange New Worlds:
https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/snw-unis-group-shot-1280x960.jpg

And by Abrams I meant ST09:
https://content.propstore.com/auction/startrek/listings/75824/img01.jpg

And by Theiss I meant TOS:
https://www.yourprops.com/movieprop...he-Original-Series-Kirk-TOS-Stunt-Pants-1.jpg

As a comparison, here is the ST09 Enterprise compared with TOS:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SRvedYdQtEo/TVfoA5IfX1I/AAAAAAAACdk/aAPtsXMEoNc/s1600/Picture+012.jpg

And I believe this is a fair rendering of the original design compared to the way Goldsman wanted it reimagined, at a stated 1450 feet length.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BD22MxjXGyg/maxresdefault.jpg

I will leave it to casual observers and others to decide for themselves what was changed more, the uniforms or the ship. In fairness, you could say everything was changed about both, or nothing substantial was changed about either. I think that’s an opinion that overlooks the nature of the changes however, with the ships not only being massively rescaled - which dramatically alters all the interiors - but also every single line. The lines of the uniforms remain the same. The lines of the ships are entirely changed. And that is just a surface level comparison as might be noticed by the casual observer.

As an artist, if I had designed the original Enterprise, I would feel Abrams and Goldsman had both massacred my design in every conceivable way. But if I had designed the original uniforms, I would feel the integrity of my design had been respected. It is this observation and subsequent belief that inspired my original post. Why the ships but not the uniforms?

I dunno. Seems that the uniforms were redesigned just as much as the ships. They both kept roughly the same shapes and proportions. Since the actors are still average humans in size it would make sense that the uniforms stayed the same size while ships can be adjusted up or down in size.
 
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