Except it didn't. You're seeing things.
The old "DS9 stole from B5" thing
- Thread starter Forbin
- Start date
What's funny about it?
They were both taking out the garbage one night and Ira said, "I'm working on a space station show" and Bill replied "Me, too."
I don't think that's indication of studio execs feeding ideas. It is common in network TV for creators introduce elements to pilot episodes thinking they'll be important and then later to not use those elements. Gene Roddenberry famously thought the Enterprise-D would be saucer separating all the time when they wrote "Encounter at Farpoint," and it only ever happened a handful of times.
What kind of rating, and by what organization?
Ah, yes, "has space battles" is evidence of copying. No one ever had space battles until JMS invented them.
Seriously.
I didn't even imagine that this concept could be so utterly misunderstood. Even granting that it can be, my links were to data and descriptions regarding specifically Nielsen ratings for the two shows....
Furthermore, for such a misunderstanding to be reasonable in the context of the discussion, we'd have to grant that the show-runners of DS9 said to themselves something like, "In a few years, the Internet will really take off. There're going to be opt-in and review-bomb-able polls in which anybody can vote on how good they think shows are, including ours and that other one, and they're going to be a Big Deal. We should be catering to what that landscape looks like in 25 years!" And then they all go, "Sounds great! Make it so!"
According to your links B5 had dropped to a low of 3.4 at the end of its first season (in reruns), while DS9 at its lowest was getting 4's and 5's in its later seasons long after B5 had ended.
B5 and DS9 have zero similarities beyond being set on space stations (and I say that as a huge fan of both).... which is why it was extremely amusing (and, for some, such as B5 Audio Guide co-host Chip Sudderth, exasperating) to hear noted Whovian podcaster and B5 newbie Steven Schapansky compare B5 alien races like the Centauri and the Narn to Star Trek races like the Ferengi and Klingons/Cardassians.
Right. Because Ira Behr had so much free time on his hands while working on his own TV series, that he would watch be five just because his neighbor was in it.
At neighborhood association meetings, Mumy slipped Behr brown envelopes that had photocopies of his scripts in 'em.Right. Because Ira Behr had so much free time on his hands while working on his own TV series, that he would watch be five just because his neighbor was in it.
This story is entirely fictional.
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i think there are a LOT of reaches that just aren't there...
But just the timing is really suspect. Also the commander of the station has a "big destiny" that the show will unfold. I for one would say the BASIC SCENARIO was pushed by Paramount, who heard about Babylon 5. They let the showrunners fill in their own details (who did so with success).
And in regard to Deep Space 9's success, or lack thereof... They kinda got screwed. They started off in syndication... but not necessarily as part of deal (like the "Action Pack" that ran Jack of ALl Trades next to Cleopatra 2525), and then as soon as TNG ended, Voyager began -- but on the newly formed UPN network (or whatever it was called then). So no real support for the show by executives, and got lost in the crowd (and pre- modern social media)
Sinclair being Valen was not in JMS' original plans for the character, so the idea that DS9 copied B5 because the station commander had some mysterious destiny doesn't hold water.
The other accusations that get leveled for how and why DS9 supposedly copied B5 don't hold water either.
Ah, but part of your claim is that since it didn't have the ratings it wasn't as good so who cares. But that is demonstrably incorrect. When you ignore how many people watched it (DS9 had a built in fan base to start with and was aired in more markets than PTEN had for B5) and focus on the quality, B5 comes out on top (by a little bit).
But my main point was that in Hollywood both were equal. Both were doing things. B5 was cutting edge episodic TV CG FX. The FX team on DS9 and Voyager would see that and want to emulate it. And they did. B5's great battles were over and done by the time DS9 got around to do theirs. And from someone who was watching both faithfully, B5 was better and had better FX and better stories. They pioneered the grand story arcs that are so common today. So regardless of what you think of B5, it resonated in Hollywood, which is what matters. That it didn't have as many viewers is irrelevant. It was better and the production team on DS9 and Voyager knew it and tried to reproduce the same type of thing in Star Trek. And while it may have not had the number of viewers as Star Trek, they were very loyal and dedicated viewers so the fandom was sizable.
You're affording Babylon 5 far too much influence with zero evidence to back up what you're claiming.
Yeah, I never heard of Twin Peaks either. Or Hill Street Blues. Or any of the prime time soaps. Or Blake's 7. Or the Key to Time or Trial of a Time Lord seasons of Doctor Who. Or...
Yup. Long-from television was hardly a new thing when Babylon 5 came around.
The only thing it 'pioneered' was needless convolution by whipping out Chekhov's entire arsenal -- an approach that, I am happy to say, didn't perpetuate.
The only thing it 'pioneered' was needless convolution by whipping out Chekhov's entire arsenal -- an approach that, I am happy to say, didn't perpetuate.
To be fair those shows had short arcs, not some larger plan of where things would end up.
True enough. But I doubt many shows since Babylon 5 have been created with the kind of really specific long term plan B5 had, because B5 demonstrated how many ways there are for that to go wrong and how much work you have to put in to be able to deal with those problems. The X-Files, Lost, and the Battlestar Galactica reboot were obviously not working to any carefully crafted multi-year plan. B5 was unique in a couple of ways in which it remains pretty much unique.
Here's an early JMS post on the topic. I love the passion and debate still going after all these years.
Ah, the good ol' days, when JMS wasn't accusing the Star Trek people of ripping him off. But even then he added weasel words like "knowingly." Unfortunately, Michael Piller is unavailable for comment.
There are three options for JMS: name names; don't talk about it; or just spray innuendo without evidence. There are two reasonable paths. He went for the third.
There are three options for JMS: name names; don't talk about it; or just spray innuendo without evidence. There are two reasonable paths. He went for the third.
