The Official: What do Niners Feel About Enterprise

[Anwar]

Unfortunately for VOY the audience hated all of their original creations which left them with nothing but the Borg.

Leaving aside the fact that this isn't true, since I've seen a load of Voyager episodes, including during the initial run and I liked the Vidiians plenty, do you really think it makes sense to blame the audience for Voyager's shortcomings?

Seeing how the shortcomings with the Borg were the direct result of the audience rejecting the original aliens the show gave us (and yes, it was negative audience reaction because I can safely say there was nothing wrong with their aliens), yes it does make sense to blame them for that particular shortcoming.

 

[TheGodBen]

It was him using them basically as his own plot device to teach Picard a lesson. Any random powerful alien race would've worked, the Crystalline Entity would have worked. That wasn't a true Borg episode because they were secondary to the real antagonist.

Except The Borg stood out and the audience remembered them. Plot device aliens rarely do that.

Locutus worked because he was Picard turned into something else, that was the crux of his relationship to the crew. It wouldn't work with other mouthpieces/representatives unless each of them was also a captured crewmember assimilated. The Borg are fundamentally boring as regular villains.

So you're saying that The Borg are a boring villain. Yet they were used most often on Voyager. And Voyager had a Borg castmember. And you're defending Voyager.

Should I say it? Nah, too obvious.

They were syndicated and had fewer restrictions (Behr doesn't know what he's talking about when he does his whining), and they weren't burnt out compared to the VOY staff.

Ron Moore and René Echevaria joined TNG the same year as Michael Piller, a year before Jeri Taylor, Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky. Ira Behr also joined on TNG with Piller, but he left for two years before rejoining Trek at the start of DS9. Hans Beimler wrote for TNG since the first season, and he left for a five year break before joining DS9's staff.

So how were the writers on Voyager more burned out than the writers on DS9 who had been writing Trek shows for longer than them?

Should I say it this time? Nah, I can be cleverer than that.

The difference in shows is also a major factor, THE major factor in this case.

No it's not, much as I love Trek I cannot deny that the writing in The Sopranos and Sorkin-era The West Wing was sharper most of the time. Trek at its best could certainly match it, but on average the writing on those two shows was smarter.

Exploring the area, gathering energies and particles from said Nebula, and contacting locals in order to better local relations for resupply and information exchanges. Better than just bee-lining home to the expense of everything else.

They explored the nebula because they thought it was impossible for such a phenomena to exist naturally (which it ended up not being) so they decided to explore it. It caused them to fly into a powder-keg. As for the Tak Tak, there was a line in the script about it being a trade mission, but that made little sense because all they sent was 1 shuttle. Hanging around in the star system caused the crew to become extremely ill, almost to the point of death.

I'm not saying they should have beelined for home, this is Star Trek so you have to have some aliens and weird space things, but it would have been great if they had at least had a debate about the merits of it.

You were the one who brought up the example of killing the President.

My example was supposed to be absurd, it was to parallel the absurd thing you were accusing me of. It seems like as if I proved my point.

Then this is another double standard. You wouldn't want DS9's cast killed off, but have no problems implying that you wouldn't mind VOY's cast being killed off.

No, I said that it would have been crap if "season by season they randomly killed off everyone in DS9's main cast until by the end they were all dead", because that would have meant changing the entire cast once a year. All I've ever advocated is killing off 2 or 3 characters over the course of the entire show. And I've said in the past that DS9 could have used more main character deaths, Jadzia dying was fine but given the fact that they were in a war scenario at least one more cast member should have died.

 

[Anwar]

Except The Borg stood out and the audience remembered them. Plot device aliens rarely do that.

The episode worked mainly due to good writing, not just the concept of the Borg. The writing would've allowed for any new alien with a notable gimmick to work in that story.

So you're saying that The Borg are a boring villain. Yet they were used most often on Voyager. And Voyager had a Borg castmember. And you're defending Voyager.

The idea of a recovering Borg isn't bad, and worked out fine. Them using the Borg over and over (though it really wasn't that much) wasn't such a good idea. They didn't have a choice though, since the haters rejected all their original creations.

So how were the writers on Voyager more burned out than the writers on DS9 who had been writing Trek shows for longer than them?

More restrictions, more oppressive environment, quicker burnout rate.

No it's not, much as I love Trek I cannot deny that the writing in The Sopranos and Sorkin-era The West Wing was sharper most of the time. Trek at its best could certainly match it, but on average the writing on those two shows was smarter.

Because they aren't sci-fi shows, it's the sci-fi ghetto thing wherein writers put more effort into their work if it's more realism-based.

I'm not saying they should have beelined for home, this is Star Trek so you have to have some aliens and weird space things, but it would have been great if they had at least had a debate about the merits of it.

That would be one quick debate:

Maquis: We shouldn't communicate with anyone, which means no trading or other vital operations, and just keep going in one direction for 70 years!

No, I said that it would have been crap if "season by season they randomly killed off everyone in DS9's main cast until by the end they were all dead",

And yet you wouldn't have any problem if they mass-executed VOY's cast.

Should I say it?

 

[Smiley]

Since the above arguments are being bogged down by illogic and lack of reading comprehension, I'll just post my opinion of Enterprise.

Of the live-action series, DS9 is my favorite, and ENT is my least favorite. The characters had less appeal than the other four casts because of both the writing and acting. I also disliked the reuse of storylines from previous shows, a Temporal Cold War with no rules and no plan, and the T&A that was inserted solely for ratings reasons.

That said, I give Enterprise a 72% approval rating. The prequel concept worked, and there was a nice mix of new and familiar alien races. My favorite parts of the show were early Season 2 (before "Marauders"), the majority of the Xindi arc, and especially the Season 4 episodes that explored the founding of the Federation or had fun connections to the future/past. There are 34 episodes that I rated as good or excellent during my last series runthrough, so ENT did have its moments to shine.

 

[TheGodBen]

The episode worked mainly due to good writing, not just the concept of the Borg. The writing would've allowed for any new alien with a notable gimmick to work in that story.

I can't agree. The writing in I Borg is great, but that doesn't change the fact that that episode is to blame for the slippery slope the Borg went down. Good writing didn't hide the fact that humanising The Borg too much was a bad idea, and good writing in Q Who didn't override the great potential of The Borg in that episode.

The idea of a recovering Borg isn't bad, and worked out fine. Them using the Borg over and over (though it really wasn't that much) wasn't such a good idea. They didn't have a choice though, since the haters rejected all their original creations.

You can repeat that fallacy all you like, but it's no more true than the story about Peter Piper picking a peck of pickled peppers.

More restrictions, more oppressive environment, quicker burnout rate.

Possibly true, and you've just admitted that the quality of writing on Voyager wasn't as good as on DS9. So I'm sure you'll have no problems should any Niners make the same claim in the future.

Because they aren't sci-fi shows, it's the sci-fi ghetto thing wherein writers put more effort into their work if it's more realism-based.

Aaron Sorkin put more work into his writing because he was obsessive and had an addictive personality. Over four seasons and 89 episodes of The West Wing he either wrote or co-wrote all but three of them. The writers who came after him were also writing a more realism-based show, but they didn't have his style, they were not as good and the audience dropped. The new writers found their way after a year and a half, but the show was never the same.

That would be one quick debate:

Maquis: We shouldn't communicate with anyone, which means no trading or other vital operations, and just keep going in one direction for 70 years!

Fleeter: We shouldn't make contact with species unless we need to, they're often hostile for some reason, and we should stop exploring new space anomalies because they almost always lead to a perilous situation. Lt Narnar died last month because Janeway decided to explore the quantum malengularic quantum quantum, even though we have no way of relaying our findings back to Starfleet.

And yet you wouldn't have any problem if they mass-executed VOY's cast.

Should I say it?

Feel free, you'll just look dumb for not reading what I said. Here, let me embolden it for you:

"All I've ever advocated is killing off 2 or 3 characters over the course of the entire show."

And if you still choose not to read it I can underline it too.

 

[Anwar]

Good writing didn't hide the fact that humanising The Borg too much was a bad idea, and good writing in Q Who didn't override the great potential of The Borg in that episode.

Any race with a reasonable gimmick would have worked with that episode, like the Vidiians attacking and harvesting some of the crew and then chasing the Enterprise.

You can repeat that fallacy all you like, but it's no more true than the story about Peter Piper picking a peck of pickled peppers.

The audience simply despised any and every attempt by the writers to create new adversaries or even non-adversary aliens. After nothing but constant rejection of everything you put hard work into, you just stop caring and putting work in. What's the point when you know NOTHING you do will ever be good enough for the jerks who watch your show?

Possibly true, and you've just admitted that the quality of writing on Voyager wasn't as good as on DS9. So I'm sure you'll have no problems should any Niners make the same claim in the future.

Nah, any exhaustion or poor writing on VOY is because of the UPN treatment. The same from DS9 is just because they're not good writers .

Aaron Sorkin put more work into his writing because he was obsessive and had an addictive personality. Over four seasons and 89 episodes of The West Wing he either wrote or co-wrote all but three of them. The writers who came after him were also writing a more realism-based show, but they didn't have his style, they were not as good and the audience dropped. The new writers found their way after a year and a half, but the show was never the same.

Writers who do "real" shows don't want to do sci-fi shows and thus won't put real effort into their work. It's the same reason Nolan says that Dark Knight isn't a superhero movie, it's a "crime drama". He's disgusted at the thought that he put hard work into a superhero flick.

Fleeter: We shouldn't make contact with species unless we need to, they're often hostile for some reason, and we should stop exploring new space anomalies because they almost always lead to a perilous situation. Lt Narnar died last month because Janeway decided to explore the quantum malengularic quantum quantum, even though we have no way of relaying our findings back to Starfleet.

FLEET: We can't isolate ourselves from the rest of the gaalxy because others will have necessary information and resources that would make things easier for us, and interspecies cooperation is what built the Federation to begin with. Janeway wants to explore strange phenomena because irregularities in space can lead to possible technological improvements that we implement ourselves or stronger energy sources we can collect.

Feel free, you'll just look dumb for not reading what I said. Here, let me embolden it for you:

"All I've ever advocated is killing off 2 or 3 characters over the course of the entire show."

And if you still choose not to read it I can underline it too.

You were talking about DS9, not VOY. With VOY you said they had the chance to kill off the crew when their contracts all expired. Not one, not two, but the entire cast save Mulgrew.

 

[TheGodBen]

Any race with a reasonable gimmick would have worked with that episode, like the Vidiians attacking and harvesting some of the crew and then chasing the Enterprise.

The Vidiians were a great concept for a race, so the episode would have been workable with some heavy modifications. If you had put the Ramurans into Q Who in place of The Borg they wouldn't have stood out because they were boring. (I only remembered them because I performed a Google search for easily forgotten Voyager aliens).

The audience simply despised any and every attempt by the writers to create new adversaries or even non-adversary aliens. After nothing but constant rejection of everything you put hard work into, you just stop caring and putting work in. What's the point when you know NOTHING you do will ever be good enough for the jerks who watch your show?

Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry. Red lorry. Yellow lorry.

Completely unrelated: Why does somebody think that I'm condescending?

Nah, any exhaustion or poor writing on VOY is because of the UPN treatment. The same from DS9 is just because they're not good writers .

Fair enough, you don't like the writing on DS9. Several people here don't like the writing on Voyager, so you're going to show a single standard by and not criticising them for disliking a different TV show, right?

Writers who do "real" shows don't want to do sci-fi shows and thus won't put real effort into their work. It's the same reason Nolan says that Dark Knight isn't a superhero movie, it's a "crime drama". He's disgusted at the thought that he put hard work into a superhero flick.

Nobody that worked on Star Trek was ever a fan of the show since childhood?!

Wheeeee!

(Seriously, how could I possibly be accused of condescending behaviour?)

FLEET: We can't isolate ourselves from the rest of the gaalxy because others will have necessary information and resources that would make things easier for us, and interspecies cooperation is what built the Federation to begin with. Janeway wants to explore strange phenomena because irregularities in space can lead to possible technological improvements that we implement ourselves or stronger energy sources we can collect.

Someone with better hair: It's not worth the cost in lives. Now I know that Janeway likes to ignore all the people that have died over the years, which is why the official crew count is always stuck around the 150 mark, but I think that the lives of unique individuals are more important than "interspecies cooperation" or developing new technologies. Maybe Janeway would understand how we on the lower decks feel if someone close to her, like Chakotay, were to die out of her need to explore.

You were talking about DS9, not VOY. With VOY you said they had the chance to kill off the crew when their contracts all expired. Not one, not two, but the entire cast save Mulgrew.

I think I know what I was talking about Anwar, and over the past 5 months you have demonstrated a propensity for a) not reading what I say, or b) misrepresenting what I say.

When I was talking about opportunities to kill off main castmembers you know damn well that I was referring to the points at which the castmember's contracts ran out. The entire main cast, except for Mulgrew, had their contract run out at the end of season 3, Mulgrew's was different because Genevieve Bujold was originally cast to play the role of Janeway. You know all this, and anyone with half a working brain could see that that is what I was talking about, and since I know you do have a fully functional brain I can only conclude that you were intentionally misrepresenting the facts because it is easier to argue against an argument that nobody is making.

 

[happydave]

Writers who do "real" shows don't want to do sci-fi shows and thus won't put real effort into their work. It's the same reason Nolan says that Dark Knight isn't a superhero movie, it's a "crime drama". He's disgusted at the thought that he put hard work into a superhero flick.

There's a fair few Trek writers who have moved to 24 now. So that's a pretty blanket statement to make and I'm pretty sure Coto would easily move back to ENT if it relaunched.

As for your comments on Nolan, you might have wanted to pick a writer who continues to pick out Science Fiction movies to make. Memento has some science fiction elements and Inception (currently making) is basically pure Science Fiction.

Add that to rebooted Batman Franchise & there is talk about him even wanted to do a film remake of The Prisoner and basically his entire career is surrounded with Science Fiction.

He is NOT disgusted in Science Fiction as you put it and if you're going to continue to make completely baseless and unfounded statements please at least make them remotely believable instead of just making things up to support your point.

And add JJ Abrams to the list, he made Felicity, Alias and started to move into SciFi territory with Lost, Trek and he'll even continue to make action blockbusters like MI3.

 

[Anwar]

The Vidiians were a great concept for a race, so the episode would have been workable with some heavy modifications. If you had put the Ramurans into Q Who in place of The Borg they wouldn't have stood out because they were boring. (I only remembered them because I performed a Google search for easily forgotten Voyager aliens).

Like I said, put any alien species that had a easily demonstrated gimmick in Q Who? and it still works. The Borg aren't interesting as a regular antagonist unless you put in other aliens to play them off of. Every last one of VOY's were rejected so they had no one to play them off of.

Completely unrelated: Why does somebody think that I'm condescending?

Perhaps the utter lack of compassion or understanding for VOY's writing staff?

Nobody that worked on Star Trek was ever a fan of the show since childhood?!

I didn't say that, but it's true that the sci-fi genre is looked down upon by those who work on "serious" and "realism-based" shows. It's like those arrogant actors on sitcoms who get all prima donna and say stuff like "I don't need this, I was classically trained!"

Someone with better hair: It's not worth the cost in lives. Now I know that Janeway likes to ignore all the people that have died over the years, which is why the official crew count is always stuck around the 150 mark, but I think that the lives of unique individuals are more important than "interspecies cooperation" or developing new technologies. Maybe Janeway would understand how we on the lower decks feel if someone close to her, like Chakotay, were to die out of her need to explore.

Someone with a working brain: The captain didn't gain her rank without being in combat and go through losing people in the first place, so she knows what she's doing. You want to waste 70 years going in a straight line instead of using the surrounding environment to improve our lot in life and improve our technology so to not waste 70 years going in a straight line. Maybe you'll get it once your way gets a few dozen people starved to death or killed in action due to your isolationist single-minded near-xenophobia and anti-science approach.

When I was talking about opportunities to kill off main castmembers you know damn well that I was referring to the points at which the castmember's contracts ran out.

In other words, kill every cast member whose contract ran out. All at the same time.

 

[Anwar]

There's a fair few Trek writers who have moved to 24 now.

And? That just means they jumped ship from sci-fi to something more "realistic". It supports my argument if anything.

As for your comments on Nolan, you might have wanted to pick a writer who continues to pick out Science Fiction movies to make. Memento has some science fiction elements and Inception (currently making) is basically pure Science Fiction.

Memento isn't that sci-fi, and when I checked on "Inception" all I could find was "A CEO gets involved in a blackmail scheme" at IMDB.

Add that to rebooted Batman Franchise & there is talk about him even wanted to do a film remake of The Prisoner

Like I said, he says that Batman is a "crime drama" and not a superhero movie. And the Prisoner still isn't sci-fi either, it gets s bit surreal but it's not really sci-fi.

And add JJ Abrams to the list, he made Felicity, Alias and started to move into SciFi territory with Lost, Trek and he'll even continue to make action blockbusters like MI3.

The makers of LOST say that it's a "genre" show, not a "sci-fi" show or a "fantasy" one. Saying it's "genre" still is a way of avoiding the sci-fi ghetto. The MI movies aren't sci-fi either, they're action thrillers.

 

[mattyhugh]

The Dark Knight has more in common with Heat than it does with Fantastic Four. Nolon is right not calling it a 'superhero' movie.

 

[Anwar]

It also fits the sci-fi ghetto thing as well, just like how people say that NuBSG isn't sci-fi either despite the FTL and robots and stuff.

Batman, including Dark Knight, is about a guy who dresses up in a funny costume to scare people and use gimmick weaponry like "Bat-Sonar" and stuff. His archenemy is a demented clown. Sure there's that mob stuff and the anvilicious terror thing, but to deny the superhero stuff is nonsense. It's just a case of Nolan being ashamed that Batman is a comic character.

 

[TheGodBen]

Like I said, put any alien species that had a easily demonstrated gimmick in Q Who? and it still works. The Borg aren't interesting as a regular antagonist unless you put in other aliens to play them off of. Every last one of VOY's were rejected so they had no one to play them off of.

No, what I said was the the Vidiians were a great alien species who would have been recognised as such whether their introductory episode was great or not, and I feel the same is true of The Borg. Your kilometerage may vary.

Perhaps the utter lack of compassion or understanding for VOY's writing staff?

Why should I have compassion for people who are being paid to do a job? Do people have compassion for the people that work in the IT industry? No, and they shouldn't, and if I am ever found to be doing my job badly I deserve a good, hard kick up the arse. (Why is "arse" being flagged as not in the dictionary? It's a UK English dictionary!)

And you really haven't been paying attention, because I have several times in the past defended the Voyager writing staff with you in threads started by n00bs in the Voyager forum. I know full well that Voyager was held back moreso by UPN meddling than lack of ambition by the writers. So once again, stop criticising me for things I don't do.

I didn't say that, but it's true that the sci-fi genre is looked down upon by those who work on "serious" and "realism-based" shows. It's like those arrogant actors on sitcoms who get all prima donna and say stuff like "I don't need this, I was classically trained!"

Or like Patrick Stewart back in the early days of TNG.

And it still doesn't apply to Star Trek because a lot of the writers on Star Trek clearly loved the show. René Echevarria, Ron Moore and Brannon Braga were hired because they loved Trek (link), and while I can't speak for the writers on Voyager, Brian Fuller was clearly a big fan, presumably Michael Taylor was, and Mike Sussman is one of the most notable Trekkies ever hired. Mix in some some of the art guys like Doug Drexler and John Eaves and I don't see how anyone can think that the people working on Trek were ashamed to be working on a scifi show. I don't see what you're trying to get at here.

Someone with a working brain: The captain didn't gain her rank without being in combat and go through losing people in the first place, so she knows what she's doing. You want to waste 70 years going in a straight line instead of using the surrounding environment to improve our lot in life and improve our technology so to not waste 70 years going in a straight line. Maybe you'll get it once your way gets a few dozen people starved to death or killed in action due to your isolationist single-minded near-xenophobia and anti-science approach.

Someone striking a dramatic pose: It sure would have been nice if we had actually seen Janeway losing people close to her and how that hardened her into the captain she is today, because inferring that that might have happened some time long ago isn't particularly good from a dramatic perspective. It seems to me, as someone that isn't a part of her "family" of nine main cast members, that she doesn't care so much if we die in order to satisfy her curiousity. I'm not saying that that's the case, it's just the way I perceive these things.

In other words, kill every cast member whose contract ran out. All at the same time.

Okay, I'll embolden and underline it:

"All I've ever advocated is killing off 2 or 3 characters over the course of the entire show."

 

[Tuvok]

Disappointed.

Season four seemed on the right track, then we get 'These are the voyages...'

I know I can ignore it's existence, but the knowledge it's out there is like a boil on your butt.

You can't see it but you sure as hell know it's there.

 

[DevilEyes]

And add JJ Abrams to the list, he made Felicity, Alias and started to move into SciFi territory with Lost, Trek and he'll even continue to make action blockbusters like MI3.

The makers of LOST say that it's a "genre" show, not a "sci-fi" show or a "fantasy" one. Saying it's "genre" still is a way of avoiding the sci-fi ghetto. The MI movies aren't sci-fi either, they're action thrillers.

Actually, the showrunners of LOST say that it is Science Fiction, but that they cleverly masked it in the early seasons so they could hook the audience that wouldn't normally want to watch something labelled as SF.

 

[Anwar]

No, what I said was the the Vidiians were a great alien species who would have been recognised as such whether their introductory episode was great or not, and I feel the same is true of The Borg. Your kilometerage may vary.

Good writing aside, both are "gimmick" races with easily displayable gimmicks. The episode would work with ANY gimmick race and thus isn't good evidence of the Borg being good as the faceless foe.

Why should I have compassion for people who are being paid to do a job? Do people have compassion for the
people that work in the IT industry?

1) Because they are the Butt Monkeys of the Trek fandom, taking abuse for failures that aren't theirs.

2) Yes, people do have compassion for people in the IT Industry.

I know full well that Voyager was held back moreso by UPN meddling than lack of ambition by the writers.

Then quit saying stuff like "The writers weren't competent enough to write the Borg".

Or like Patrick Stewart back in the early days of TNG.

He's an inversion actually, he said that all the Kings and Emperors he played in the RSC were great preparation for the role of Picard.

I don't see how anyone can think that the people working on Trek were ashamed to be working on a scifi show. I don't see what you're trying to get at here.

I wasn't referring to the writing staff of the shows, I was referring to how you kept saying that people like Aaron Sorkin were great writers for lousy concepts. Guys who do shows like West Wing or The Wire would rather be caught dead than do a sci-fi or fantasy type show, because they would see it as beneath them.

Someone striking a dramatic pose: It sure would have been nice if we had actually seen Janeway losing people close to her and how that hardened her into the captain she is today, because inferring that that might have happened some time long ago isn't particularly good from a dramatic perspective. It seems to me, as someone that isn't a part of her "family" of nine main cast members, that she doesn't care so much if we die in order to satisfy her curiousity. I'm not saying that that's the case, it's just the way I perceive these things.

Executive Suit: Too much money to waste on flashback episodes and hiring one-time actors to play people who all die for the sake of character development. You need to see every single last defining moment in a persons' life?

"All I've ever advocated is killing off 2 or 3 characters over the course of the entire show."

And you were talking about DS9, not VOY. Seriously, do you see people blathering on about how everyone in NuBSG's cast should have died horrible meaningless deaths? No, because it's double standard. They hate one cast of characters (for stupid reasons) for living and worship the other one and hope none of them would ever die.

 

[Anwar]

And add JJ Abrams to the list, he made Felicity, Alias and started to move into SciFi territory with Lost, Trek and he'll even continue to make action blockbusters like MI3.

The makers of LOST say that it's a "genre" show, not a "sci-fi" show or a "fantasy" one. Saying it's "genre" still is a way of avoiding the sci-fi ghetto. The MI movies aren't sci-fi either, they're action thrillers.

Actually, the showrunners of LOST say that it is Science Fiction, but that they cleverly masked it in the early seasons so they could hook the audience that wouldn't normally want to watch something labelled as SF.

What they said was:

"You can go, "Oh, it's not a genre show, because I don't like genre shows, but I like 'Lost.' Therefore, 'Lost' is not a genre show." That's the logic they apply. Well, we've been writing a genre show from the word go. We're sorry that it's getting more genre." Note though that this hasn't always squared with what they've said before or with the show's marketing (where it's usually described as a straightforward drama).

-http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/01/lost_damon_lindelof_qa.html

They never say "sci-fi" once, it's "genre".

 

[DevilEyes]

The makers of LOST say that it's a "genre" show, not a "sci-fi" show or a "fantasy" one. Saying it's "genre" still is a way of avoiding the sci-fi ghetto. The MI movies aren't sci-fi either, they're action thrillers.

Actually, the showrunners of LOST say that it is Science Fiction, but that they cleverly masked it in the early seasons so they could hook the audience that wouldn't normally want to watch something labelled as SF.

What they said was:

"You can go, "Oh, it's not a genre show, because I don't like genre shows, but I like 'Lost.' Therefore, 'Lost' is not a genre show." That's the logic they apply. Well, we've been writing a genre show from the word go. We're sorry that it's getting more genre." Note though that this hasn't always squared with what they've said before or with the show's marketing (where it's usually described as a straightforward drama).

-http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/01/lost_damon_lindelof_qa.html

They never say "sci-fi" once, it's "genre".

You don't really think that they talked about this just once?

"This year will probably be a little bit more science fictiony."

Lindelof laughed that, "We sort of suckered people into this show but not presenting it as a science fiction show right out of the gate," noting that there were elements early on that were, "like a Rorschach test", saying that when Flight 815's pilot is killed, someone who didn't like sci-fi would think, "there has to be a rational explanation." Even the reveal that Locke could walk on the island was tempered by the fact that they still hadn't revealed why he was in the chair in the first place, leaving the opportunity that, "it could be psychosomatic."

(...)

Lindelof said that when it came to slowly building into more science fiction, "Lost has really been about the long con, because by the time we get to season 6, it's going to be f**king crazy!"

http://tv.ign.com/articles/930/930680p1.html

 

[Anwar]

So they admit it's science fiction last year, and this year they avoid the word and only say "genre". Looks like they're backtracking.

 

[TheGodBen]

Good writing aside, both are "gimmick" races with easily displayable gimmicks. The episode would work with ANY gimmick race and thus isn't good evidence of the Borg being good as the faceless foe.

I disagree, but lets move on.

1) Because they are the Butt Monkeys of the Trek fandom, taking abuse for failures that aren't theirs.

Some are, Braga certainly took a lot of flack he didn't deserve. Other times he wrote bad episodes and deserved all the flack he got. The same is true of Ira Behr, and I've seen him get a lot of flack from some Niners for episodes like Profit and Lace, or the evil Dukat in season 7. If a writer writes a bad episode they are open to criticism, and if they feel like they are being unfairly criticised they can come online and argue the point, like Mike Sussman and David A Goodman did back when Enterprise was on the air.

2) Yes, people do have compassion for people in the IT Industry.

That has to be your biggest fallacy yet!!

Then quit saying stuff like "The writers weren't competent enough to write the Borg".

Link me to where I said that and I'll respond, otherwise shut the fuck up and stop claiming I said things that I didn't.

He's an inversion actually, he said that all the Kings and Emperors he played in the RSC were great preparation for the role of Picard.

He says that now, but in interviews he has admitted to being a snob back in the early days. I think it was in an interview he did on Parkinson. Basically, he recalled how stuffy he was on set and how the shenanigans of the other actors used to get him mad and he once stormed off to his trailer shouting "I'm a classically trained actor and I'm not putting up with this!" or somesuch. He mellowed out after a while when he learned not to take it so seriously, and he started to join in with the others.

I wasn't referring to the writing staff of the shows, I was referring to how you kept saying that people like Aaron Sorkin were great writers for lousy concepts. Guys who do shows like West Wing or The Wire would rather be caught dead than do a sci-fi or fantasy type show, because they would see it as beneath them.

And it doesn't matter how they'd feel about writing for Trek because they don't write for Trek, while the people who did write for Trek were normally big fans and gave it their all.

So, if the writers on Voyager were fans trying to make the best shows they could, and you think that they were incapable of pulling off a mutiny story in an interesting way, do you think that the writers on Voyager were not good enough?

Defense lawyer: Objection! The prosecution is asking leading questions.

Judge: I'm going to allow this. Defendant, please answer the question.

Executive Suit: Too much money to waste on flashback episodes and hiring one-time actors to play people who all die for the sake of character development. You need to see every single last defining moment in a persons' life?

Long time nerd: That executive must have been drinking because Voyager has done plenty of flashback episodes, including one actually called Flashback. And as for hiring one-time actors, Voyager does that all the time with the aliens of the week. Someone needs to fire that executive because he clearly didn't complete secondary education.

And you were talking about DS9, not VOY.

Rereading the post I can see how you might be confused, but I actually was talking about Voyager there and not DS9, which is why I tried to differentiate DS9 directly afterwards by saying that DS9 could have used more deaths too.

Seriously, do you see people blathering on about how everyone in NuBSG's cast should have died horrible meaningless deaths?

No, but the only person I've ever seen say that about Voyager's cast is you, and you don't even support the idea.

So, if you're really asking me a question about my observations there's your answer, but if you were just asking a hypothetical question in order to inflate your own hyperbole I've still given you my answer.