The Not-So Virgin Queen
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I thought the discussion was more about whether the sentence 'Got married. That was a mistake.' immediately preceding the line about Queen Bessy belonged to the same story, i.e. whether he actually married her. Ten's comments made it pretty clear that he had sex with her.
I'm struggling with the sound of the new series (background sounds are too loud, in my opinion), so I didn't quite catch what LizTen was saying. What exactly did she say?
I'm struggling with the sound of the new series (background sounds are too loud, in my opinion), so I didn't quite catch what LizTen was saying. What exactly did she say?
yes, the discussion wasn't whether he boinked Liz One, but whether he married her. i tend to think that the marriage was to River. but we shall (hopefully) see...
Worst part of the episode. Moffat's at his worst when trying to write funny and sexy at the same time. Or, indeed, just writing sex in for no reason (Empty Child/Doctor Dances would have been so much better for me if it wasn't gratuitous sex references to the point of being a Carry On film).
Meanwhile, I think that if you take out the sex references, the entire point of "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" is lost. It's a story about sex -- about intimacy, about love, about the consequences of sexuality (parenthood), and about the consequences of trying to deny sexuality and love (the denial of the Child and the anguish it caused him). It's a story about that whole continuum of human sexuality and what human sexuality entails.
No. The best elements could have been kept and would have been fine without all the sex. I struggle to see what's about intimacy and love in it (sexual or otherwise), parenthood needn't have anything to do with sex in the way it was told, and as for "the consequences of trying to deny sexuality and love", I'm wondering if we're talking about the same episode.
Uh, no, then it would have just been some zombie story set during the Blitz.
Did you miss the entire Doctor/Rose scene where they talk about dancing? Did you completely not get that "dancing" was being used as a metaphor for sex and romance -- both by Moffat and by the characters? Did you miss the emotional point of that episode, which is Rose believing that the Doctor does not "dance" and the Doctor feeling the need to open up to her about the fact that he does "dance?" The whole Jack/Rose/Doctor jealousy thing, with the Doctor confronting feeling inadequate in front of another man for the first time?
What on Earth do you mean here? Part of the point of the episode was that sexuality has consequences. Parenthood and sexuality are inextricably linked; that's why the Empty Child is written to turn out to be Nancy's son -- the idea of family and of reproduction is as much a part of the story as the idea of "dancing."
Nancy denies that the Empty Child is her son; she denies him a parent's love. She does this to escape, herself, into the role of a "child," of the asexuality associated with childhood; Nancy wants the world to think she is still a young girl too young to be a mother herself. She is denying her responsibility for her own sexuality. This has the consequence of creating an emotionally disturbed child who literally threatens the world.
It's about about this thing called a theme. You've probably heard about them in English classes -- themes are the ideas that a story is about rather than its plot. "The Empty Child" is essentially a story about the theme of sexuality -- how it manifests in the form of romantic love between adults, how it creates families and leads to the love between parents and children, and how denying sexuality has negative consequences for adults (the Doctor being an emotionally dysfunctional person in many ways because of his affectations of asexuality and avoidance of intimacy) and for society at large (when children are damaged by parents who refuse to accept their responsibility for their sexuality and its consequences).
I thought it was funny. The Doctor has had sex in the past and continues to do so every now and then, big deal. Although most of the time he is fighting monsters, saving things, and being wonderful. Still he manages to set time aside for that.
That was one thing i wasnt expecting. Although, its obvious what they are talking about, it still doesnt exactly say what hed did.
Couldve been anything from a quick shag in the Tower of London to a mundane thing such as caught red handed trying to either steal something or is rumbled as an imposter, much like the season two episode Tooth and Claw with Queen Vic.
Its obvious though, isnt it.
however, he must have had to synchronise with one her quarterly baths. Dirty Doctor.
Couldve been anything from a quick shag in the Tower of London to a mundane thing such as caught red handed trying to either steal something or is rumbled as an imposter, much like the season two episode Tooth and Claw with Queen Vic.
Its obvious though, isnt it.
however, he must have had to synchronise with one her quarterly baths. Dirty Doctor.
Why do I get the feeling that you are either incredibly conservative and prudish in real life, or you're a virgin? Neither is meant as an insult. But, your automatic reactions to anything sexual is becoming more and more obvious...
Really? And there was me thinking that it was about dancing, actual honest to god dancing. Maybe you're right about it Sci, but I'm just going to continue to believe that Nine and Rose were discussing dancing and the whole bit at the end with the Nanobots where he claims to be able to dance is just that, him dancing.
Dude, they said that they used dancing as a metaphor for sex on Doctor Who Confidential. Moffat even wrote on the Outpost Gallifrey boards at the time that he meant dancing as a metaphor for sexuality and romance. The subtext of the entire "I thought the Universe ends if the Doctor dances" conversation between Rose and the Doctor is Rose asking the Doctor if he's asexual and the Doctor admitting that he isn't but it's been a long time.
Yes we know the idea of sex makes you sick
The Doctor has to be so so boring and is never allowed to have fun. Being grown up and comfortable with such issues I don't mind when Doctor Who goes a bit adult cause I assume since we know he has children and it did happen when DT 10th version was running from death so he may of let his hair down and actually did something grown up.The Doctor has sex get over it
I'm glad you said that...
As for Elizabeth, my understanding of history is that she wasn't neccesarily a virgin, it was more a propaganda image around her never marrying.
I have no probablem with him bonking her, but I reckon marriage might be pushing it a bit. I tend to agree with Cap, the marriage remark was meant to refer to River.
And Bones, never ever watch Coupling because the entire show revolves around sex, and is downright hilarious, but somehow I doubt you'd like it
And? I never went anywhere near Outpost Gallifrey and didn't watch Confidential back then, I actually had better things to do on a Saturday night being it was the tale end of my second year at uni and all! If it was metaphor for sex, then so be it, I haven't watched either episode in a while and I'm going on what I first thought five years ago and actually not given any thought to until reading what you said a matter of hours ago.
Just don't get why some fans insist that the Doctor remain a chaste traveller or cringe at the mention of sexuality or romance in Doctor Who. As I've said before, the premise of the series is inherently romantic: a mysterious man from a far-away place whisks young women (sometimes men too) off to adventures on distant stars and shores and times.
Moffat and Davies recognized this element of DW and, correctly imnsho, made it a more prominent feature of the series. And Davies got to play with the whole spectrum of relationships with his Doctor (s)--from pure soul mate (Rose) to unrequited love (Martha and Jack) to loss love (Sarah Jane) to friendship (Donna).
I think both Davies and Moffat have handled sexuality in a far more deft and mature manner than the juvenile way it was done on ModTrek.
Moffat and Davies recognized this element of DW and, correctly imnsho, made it a more prominent feature of the series. And Davies got to play with the whole spectrum of relationships with his Doctor (s)--from pure soul mate (Rose) to unrequited love (Martha and Jack) to loss love (Sarah Jane) to friendship (Donna).
I think both Davies and Moffat have handled sexuality in a far more deft and mature manner than the juvenile way it was done on ModTrek.
Why? Coupling is obviously built around sex and romance and the humour therein.And Bones, never ever watch Coupling because the entire show revolves around sex, and is downright hilarious, but somehow I doubt you'd like it
I don't think it's strange or weird or prudish to not have a hard on for The Doctor as an intergalactic Don Juan.
It's fairly obvious in the episodes, especially when the Doctor explains to Rose that, being a 51st Century guy, Jack is a bit more felxible when it comes to dance partners.
Why? Coupling is obviously built around sex and romance and the humour therein.And Bones, never ever watch Coupling because the entire show revolves around sex, and is downright hilarious, but somehow I doubt you'd like it
I don't think it's strange or weird or prudish to not have a hard on for The Doctor as an intergalactic Don Juan.
I think there's a big difference between not wanting the Doctor to be James T Kirk and blushing and sticking your fingers in your ear each time mention is made that the Doctor (a 900 year old adult and a grandfather) might have got squelchy with someone.
Pretty much what it was. Though leaving aside the sex, Barrowman, and pretty big liberties with the screwdriver (flaws that would have killed a worse episode for me), it still managed to evoke a great atmosphere and the empty child itself is quite iconic.
Yeah, I got the metaphor of dancing for sex. It's not as if it was subtle. It was like a ruddy Carry On film. But this idea that it was some big exploration of any issues of that nature doesn't hold. At its heart, Doctor Who's a kids show, and so all we really got were some eye-rolling innuendos that I just don't feel belonged.
If the child being Nancy's was meant to be part of this grand exploration of sexuality you say the episode is, then it was certainly lost on me. Indeed, I can't see much exploration beyond showing a vision of wartime London where every man is secretly gay and trying to apply sexuality to the Doctor in a way not done in the show's 40 years outside of bad fanfics.
Sure, but notice you can leave any reference to sexuality out of that paragraph and it still makes sense. Indeed, I don't recall the episode making any reference to sexuality in regards to Nancy being the child's mother. As I say, my memories of sexuality in the episode are the laboured "dancing" innuendo and John Barrowman (haha, John Inman more like) looking at men's bums. Hardly the most mature exploration of sexual issues, rather a pantomine style "one for the mums and dads".
Don't try and patronise me.
If it that's really what it was meant to be - and I have my doubts - then well done for spotting it. But to me it rather seemed like a load of knowing references and innuendos that the kids won't get were shoehorned into a family show.
Oh lordy.
Look, you really don't know me in real life, and I'm certainly no prude. As I've had to say time and again when it frequently comes up, my objections to sex in Doctor Who are for two reasons. Firstly, it's a show not only that children watch, but has children as the target audience. Secondly, trying to turn the character of the Doctor into a sexual or romantic figure (with regards to humans at least) makes the character less mysterious, is a cheap way of manufacturing drama on the level of bad slash fiction, and makes little sense when you consider Time Lords as more advanced than humans. The Doctor being in love with, say, Romana could make sense. The Doctor being in love with a 19 year old chav doesn't, and was symptomatic of the way RTD's Doctor Who wanted to be more of a soap opera than a sci-fi show.
But these are just my views regarding sex in Doctor Who, not sex in general. You really, really don't know me.
Oh goody. Yet another person resorting to personal abuse rather than proper discussion. Really not a great advert for DW fandom, this place.Yes we know the idea of sex makes you sick
Not so grown up that you can make what you say coherent though.
Of course he does. He has a granddaughter after all. But presumably it was with another Gallifreyan and not some chav, and I don't think it's a great idea to fill a kids show with innuendo and smut just to look modern and as a way to disassociate itself from the classic series.The Doctor has sex get over it
Oh yes, people were having a go at me. Only a matter of time before you showed up; they were singing your favourite song.I'm glad you said that...
THIS IS ONLY AS REGARDS DOCTOR FUCKING WHO.And Bones, never ever watch Coupling because the entire show revolves around sex, and is downright hilarious, but somehow I doubt you'd like it
I don't mind sex on TV in the least, but not in a kids show. As for comedy, so long as its target audience is adult, then there's not much that offends me. The thing most offensive to me in comedy is when it isn't funny. My favourite sitcom ever is probably Peep Show, so make of that what you will.
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