The New Movies Yea or Nay

[Brie]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Okay first off calm down. I'm not "criticizing" I'm giving my opinion, which is what forums are for. Second romulans are Vulcans that separated themselves centuries ago. If you know a lot about Trek you know these races focus around logic and reasoning, though romulans are much more rude. That being said it is not "logical" for them to tattoo their face it serves no purpose and in that race, doing anything without logic it's unheard of.

Second I'm not saying they all have to look the same. I'm saying that I would like them to keep more along the TOS lines. if you read my prior posts I gave great praise to many aspects of this move, it just wasn't for me. I'm a huge Trekkie and something about these moves just doesn't do it for me. But again that's my OPINION and in my OPINION I didn't like the look of romulans in the movie. So don't get all rude with me because I have a difference of opinion.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Okay first off calm down. I'm not "criticizing" I'm giving my opinion, which is what forums are for. Second romulans are Vulcans that separated themselves centuries ago. If you know a lot about Trek you know these races focus around logic and reasoning, though romulans are much more rude. That being said it is not "logical" for them to tattoo their face it serves no purpose and in that race, doing anything without logic it's unheard of.

Second I'm not saying they all have to look the same. I'm saying that I would like them to keep more along the TOS lines. if you read my prior posts I gave great praise to many aspects of this move, it just wasn't for me. I'm a huge Trekkie and something about these moves just doesn't do it for me. But again that's my OPINION and in my OPINION I didn't like the look of romulans in the movie. So don't get all rude with me because I have a difference of opinion.

Um, to politely disagree with the point about Romulans being about logic-they are not, at all, about logic. They are a warrior race, who are creatures of duty, above all else (TOS: Balance of Terror). Romulans are deeply emotional and passionate, the result of unsuppressed emotions and leaving after Vulcans embraced the logical teachings of Surak.

The idea of tattoos exist in human societies for a number of reasons, and Nero's crew is one small group of Romulans who just lost their homeworld. Since we have never seen Romulans in mourning before (that I can recall) the tattoos may be for solidarity and memorial to their lost world.


Also, as a quick aside, I did not post the picture of Nero with the face tattoos. That was a misquote.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Nero and his gang are a different socioeconomic class of Romulan than we've seen before. Most of the time, we've seen military personnel. We saw average Romulans on the street in "Unification." I've blocked Nemesis from my mind, so I can't really recall what Romulans we saw besides military Romulans in that.

Nero and gang are blue-collar miner Romulans, basically fresh from the mines. I don't know exactly why they chose to give them tattoos, but in my head-canon it's because it's the tradition for their class.

Since we have never seen Romulans in mourning before (that I can recall) the tattoos may be for solidarity and memorial to their lost world.

That's a great idea. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Brie]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

again call it artistic difference of what have you, but again this is my OPINION and I personally did not like that touch. You're right we've hardly seen non-military romulans, and to counter you fireproof, you're right they are very emotional, the difference between vulcans and romulans, but the idea of logic is still deeply rooted in them, as you can tell by oh so many episodes throughout all of the different ST series'

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Okay first off calm down. I'm not "criticizing" I'm giving my opinion, which is what forums are for. Second romulans are Vulcans that separated themselves centuries ago. If you know a lot about Trek you know these races focus around logic and reasoning, though romulans are much more rude. That being said it is not "logical" for them to tattoo their face it serves no purpose and in that race, doing anything without logic it's unheard of.

Second I'm not saying they all have to look the same. I'm saying that I would like them to keep more along the TOS lines. if you read my prior posts I gave great praise to many aspects of this move, it just wasn't for me. I'm a huge Trekkie and something about these moves just doesn't do it for me. But again that's my OPINION and in my OPINION I didn't like the look of romulans in the movie. So don't get all rude with me because I have a difference of opinion.

No one is "excited" and no one is being rude, so I'm not sure why you're asking anyone to "calm down". The forums are also about discussion. You give an opinion and other members discuss that opinion. Some may support it. Others may offer a rebuttal that counters that opinion. That's all that's going on.

Romulans have a different culture than Vulcan, as they are from the pre Surakian period. As Spock said in Balance of Terror

Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous,

It is for them, Doctor. Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonizing period. Savage, even by Earth standards. And if Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show.

Romulans are much more passionate than Vulcans. Not sure they embrace logic and reason above all. So why not tattoos?

Wheres the logic of T'Pring's beauty make up?

Or the Romulan Commanders "casual" attire?

Or these Vulcan Priestesses

Vulcanoids are very much into ritual and ornamentation. I think tattoos fit into that. Plus all the Romulans seen in TOS were military. Nero and his crew are civilians.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

again call it artistic difference of what have you, but again this is my OPINION and I personally did not like that touch. You're right we've hardly seen non-military romulans, and to counter you fireproof, you're right they are very emotional, the difference between vulcans and romulans, but the idea of logic is still deeply rooted in them, as you can tell by oh so many episodes throughout all of the different ST series'

I'll grant differences on artistic merits. I don't think anyone, including myself, is begrudging your opinion.

However, Romulans have been described in several ways, but logical is not one of them. Unless I missed some episode in which they state otherwise, and if so, please feel free to share that insight.

Beyond that, Nero's apperance didn't bother me, but that is also because I found the character so incredibly fascinating from a psychological point of view. His appearance is alien enough for my suspension of disbelief, and the rest is carried on by his character.

But, your mileage may vary, and that's ok

 

[Brie]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

It's never specifically stated that they cling only to logic, becuase you're right they aren't nearly as logical as vulcans. but on many ocasions from TOS to enterprise they mention the origins of romulans and how they were a group of vulcans who disagreed with supressing emotion. That being said they do still have vastly more logical view points than most other alien races. no romulan from the origanl series to enterprise ever tattoed themselves or even mentioned the idea of it. other alien races have and hell even the first officer in Voyager had tattoos, but no episode or movie prior had a tattooed romulan. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it didn't seem to fit with prior depictions or descriptions of romulans.

There were many refreshing new aspects about the two new movies that I appreciated, but there were also a lot of things I didn't like. This was just a very minor one but it seems to be the only opinion that is really bringing a lot of controversy. Overall I just wasn't a huge fan of the movies. Not saying they were bad they just weren't what I was hoping for.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

It's never specifically stated that they cling only to logic, becuase you're right they aren't nearly as logical as vulcans. but on many ocasions from TOS to enterprise they mention the origins of romulans and how they were a group of vulcans who disagreed with supressing emotion. That being said they do still have vastly more logical view points than most other alien races. no romulan from the origanl series to enterprise ever tattoed themselves or even mentioned the idea of it. other alien races have and hell even the first officer in Voyager had tattoos, but no episode or movie prior had a tattooed romulan. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it didn't seem to fit with prior depictions or descriptions of romulans.

There were many refreshing new aspects about the two new movies that I appreciated, but there were also a lot of things I didn't like. This was just a very minor one but it seems to be the only opinion that is really bringing a lot of controversy. Overall I just wasn't a huge fan of the movies. Not saying they were bad they just weren't what I was hoping for.

The Romulans physically appeared twice in TOS and had one more episode where they were adversaries. Not a whole of time to establish everything about their culture. At no time in those episodes do they talk about Romulans embracing logic. The whole point of the Romulans in TOS is to provide a counterpoint to the Vulcans.

We learn new things about Trek aliens with almost every appearance. Vulcans weren't telepaths at first. From his remarks in WNMHGB, you might think Spock mistrusted ESPers. But in "Dagger of the Mind, Spock reveals Vulcans can do mind melds. In TOS no Klingon rambled on about honor, yet in TNG suddenly honor is the most important thing in their culture. Star Trek isn't and shouldn't be static. The characters and races are always evolving.

While Romulans with tattoos hadn't been seen before, I can think of no reason why Romulans would object to tattooing. So give me a reason. The logic thing won't fly, as we established Romulan are not like Vulcans in embracing logic.

 

[Brie]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

It's never specifically stated that they cling only to logic, becuase you're right they aren't nearly as logical as vulcans. but on many ocasions from TOS to enterprise they mention the origins of romulans and how they were a group of vulcans who disagreed with supressing emotion. That being said they do still have vastly more logical view points than most other alien races. no romulan from the origanl series to enterprise ever tattoed themselves or even mentioned the idea of it. other alien races have and hell even the first officer in Voyager had tattoos, but no episode or movie prior had a tattooed romulan. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it didn't seem to fit with prior depictions or descriptions of romulans.

There were many refreshing new aspects about the two new movies that I appreciated, but there were also a lot of things I didn't like. This was just a very minor one but it seems to be the only opinion that is really bringing a lot of controversy. Overall I just wasn't a huge fan of the movies. Not saying they were bad they just weren't what I was hoping for.

The Romulans physically appeared twice in TOS and had one more episode where they were adversaries. Not a whole of time to establish everything about their culture. At no time in those episodes do they talk about Romulans embracing logic. The whole point of the Romulans in TOS is to provide a counterpoint to the Vulcans.

We learn new things about Trek aliens with almost every appearance. Vulcans weren't telepaths at first. From his remarks in WNMHGB, you might think Spock mistrusted ESPers. But in "Dagger of the Mind, Spock reveals Vulcans can do mind melds. In TOS no Klingon rambled on about honor, yet in TNG suddenly honor is the most important thing in their culture. Star Trek isn't and shouldn't be static. The characters and races are always evolving.

While Romulans with tattoos hadn't been seen before, I can think of no reason why Romulans would object to tattooing. So give me a reason. The logic thing won't fly, as we established Romulan are not like Vulcans in embracing logic.

At no point was tattooing mentioned as a practice in their culture that's the only reason it struck me as strange to change about them. Again this was probably my smallest complaint about the movie yet it's being blown out of the water. I'm glad you stated your opinion but I will stick with mine and that's that I don't like the change.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

This is what the Romulan Commander says in "The Enterprise Incident" about Romulans and logic:

COMMANDER: You have nothing in Starfleet to which to return. I offer, we offer you an alternative. We will find a place for you, if you wish it.
SPOCK: A place?
COMMANDER: With me. Romulan women are not like Vulcan females. We are not dedicated to pure logic and the sterility of non-emotion. Our people are warriors. Often savage. But we are also many other pleasant things.
SPOCK: I was not aware of that aspect of Romulan society.
COMMANDER: As a Vulcan, you would study it. As a human you would find ways to appreciate it.
SPOCK: Please believe me. I do appreciate it.
COMMANDER: I am so glad. [etc.]

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/59.htm

Although she's talking about the comparison between Romulan and Vulcan women, in order to entice Spock to defect, it's framed in the context of the comparison between Romulans and Vulcans generally. Ergo, she's saying that Romulans generally do not embrace logic to the degree that Vulcans do; Romulans are more emotional. But in context, that's basically a way of claiming that Romulan females are more passionate and sexier than Vulcan females, oh, yeah, and that she's one of those.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

At no point was tattooing mentioned as a practice in their culture that's the only reason it struck me as strange to change about them. Again this was probably my smallest complaint about the movie yet it's being blown out of the water. I'm glad you stated your opinion but I will stick with mine and that's that I don't like the change.

Well, to me Star Trek is about change and accepting new ideas. As I said, we learn new things about the Trek races with each appearance. It makes them more real. Where's the fun if nothing is new?

It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions. Nothings getting blown out of the water. Trekkies love this stuff. ( well some do). We can ramble on for pages about the silliest, smallest detail. Its not personal its Star Trek.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

At no point was tattooing mentioned as a practice in their culture that's the only reason it struck me as strange to change about them. Again this was probably my smallest complaint about the movie yet it's being blown out of the water. I'm glad you stated your opinion but I will stick with mine and that's that I don't like the change.

Well, to me Star Trek is about change and accepting new ideas. As I said, we learn new things about the Trek races with each appearance. It makes them more real. Where's the fun if nothing is new?

It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions. Nothings getting blown out of the water. Trekkies love this stuff. ( well some do). We can ramble on for pages about the silliest, smallest detail. Its not personal its Star Trek.

I've always thought that it was odd that we mostly saw only one profession of each alien race in Trek. Romulans? Spies. Klingons? Warriors. Ferengi? Businessmen. Sure, it could be argued that that's the nature of space travel. But we rarely saw those particular aliens in other professions, and even then, only a handful of times (and a vast minority compared to other members of their race). The occasional scientist or diplomat, sure, but what about a Klingon IT support, or a Ferengi cook?

We know those jobs are necessary for them. At least we finally got to see a Romulan blue-collar worker in ST09, when really the vast majority of their appearances were snooty aristocratic imperials. And Rom was one of those precious few Ferengi who believed in the value of hard work and elbow grease rather than get-rich-quick schemes or the bottom line. But Rom and Nero were the exceptions to the rule.

 

[martok2112]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

In an episode of DS9, we saw Martok's aged Aide de camp. Moreover a servant.
We've also seen Klingon lawyers at least twice....once in TUC and once in Enterprise. (and the lawyer in Enterprise was also played by JG Herzler....aka Martok)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

I loved the tattoos. Didn't JJ or Orci say that Nero was essentially "an angry trucker who has lost his wife"? Trek has always suffered from mono-culture aliens, everyone is military and/or upper elite members of their society. We have zero reason to think Romulans don't have a working class, an underclass, people doing the garbage jobs, smugglers.. They were happy to enslave the Remans, they are not going to be an egalitarian society. A lot of people over the years have wanted to see more of Romulans other than the stiff necked connivers we often got, and Nero's little kingdom aboard the Narada showed us something different. And good for them.

Do all Romulans tattoo for mourning or just certain groups, classes, regions of the planet? We don't know, but it's interesting. I suspect it's not a planet wide practice just like we have no mourning rituals on earth that are planet wide practices. I'd like to believe Romulans are at least as diverse as humans.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

I quite like what the Countdown comic said about the tattoos: That when you lose a loved one, you shave your head and paint symbols of mourning on your face. By the time the paint fades and the hair grows back, the mourning period is over.

Since they lost their whole planet, Nero and his crew decided on something more permanent than face paint.

 

[BillJ]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Or these Vulcan Priestesses

Must have been cold on Vulcan that day!

As far as the Romulan tattoo's go: things change. It is the nature of life and entertainment. It would be a pretty dull experience if we only stuck to what was established the first time we see any particular species. I personally think the tattoo's were refreshing after two decades of shoulder pads and bowl hair cuts.

The memorial explanation is from Star Trek: Countdown, the comic prequel to Star Trek (2009).

 

[Cyke101]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

In an episode of DS9, we saw Martok's aged Aide de camp. Moreover a servant.
We've also seen Klingon lawyers at least twice....once in TUC and once in Enterprise. (and the lawyer in Enterprise was also played by JG Herzler....aka Martok)

Like I said, exceptions to the rule. Both of those examples had them surrounded by warriors, and very much in the context of battle and war. Hell, Martok's Aide de Camp was still serving in a wartime capacity; we meet him as part of the crew on a covert attack mission.

 

[Franklin]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

It's never specifically stated that they cling only to logic, becuase you're right they aren't nearly as logical as vulcans. but on many ocasions from TOS to enterprise they mention the origins of romulans and how they were a group of vulcans who disagreed with supressing emotion. That being said they do still have vastly more logical view points than most other alien races. no romulan from the origanl series to enterprise ever tattoed themselves or even mentioned the idea of it. other alien races have and hell even the first officer in Voyager had tattoos, but no episode or movie prior had a tattooed romulan. I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it didn't seem to fit with prior depictions or descriptions of romulans.

There were many refreshing new aspects about the two new movies that I appreciated, but there were also a lot of things I didn't like. This was just a very minor one but it seems to be the only opinion that is really bringing a lot of controversy. Overall I just wasn't a huge fan of the movies. Not saying they were bad they just weren't what I was hoping for.

Let's just say no Romulans before had tattoos where we could see them.

Or these Vulcan Priestesses

Thank you. Now, I can't get Steve Martin's "King Tut" out of my mind.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

Born in Arizona. Moved to Babylonia. He was born in Arizona. Got a condo made of stone-a

 

[fireproof78]

Re: The New Movies Yay or Nay

At no point was tattooing mentioned as a practice in their culture that's the only reason it struck me as strange to change about them. Again this was probably my smallest complaint about the movie yet it's being blown out of the water. I'm glad you stated your opinion but I will stick with mine and that's that I don't like the change.

Well, to me Star Trek is about change and accepting new ideas. As I said, we learn new things about the Trek races with each appearance. It makes them more real. Where's the fun if nothing is new?

It's just an exchange of ideas and opinions. Nothings getting blown out of the water. Trekkies love this stuff. ( well some do). We can ramble on for pages about the silliest, smallest detail. Its not personal its Star Trek.

Yes, to echo the above, there is nothing personal about this disagreement. The Romulans have always been my favorite race from Trek, so the different take was, well, different. Nowhere am I saying that you must agree.

I often quote SFDebris, a science fiction commentator, because he is short and sweet and to the point. In the case of entertainment, Trek specifically, his standpoint is that I won't tell you what to think but I won't be told what to think either.

As for the Romulans, the tattoos are such a minor thing that I don't give it much thought. I'm more annoyed that a Romulan chose an Earth name to go by