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The nature of Impulse Power / Drive

As far as I'm concerned, the magnetic storm that Valiant encountered is sufficient to explain how it got so far out to the galaxy's edge without FTL. Further, the Enterprise herself could have been flung by the barrier at FTL back into the galaxy, which makes it unnecessary to place Delta Vega so close to the galaxy's edge. Indeed, perhaps the magnetic storm and the barrier are related phenomena.

And the Romulan Bird of Prey is reduced to sublight impulse power only while cloaked.
 
Mytran I seems implicit that there is some inertial reducing field.
Absolutely - without an IDF the crew would just be stains on the rear wall after every time the Enterprise makes even a standard manoevre, let alone accelerations to 0.25c
Fortunately, Starfleet are masters of gravity manipulation so I don't think this would be a big deal - in fact, the IDF and artificial gravity systems are probably related.

Or did you mean the mass reduction field is implicit?

As far as I'm concerned, the magnetic storm that Valiant encountered is sufficient to explain how it got so far out to the galaxy's edge without FTL. Further, the Enterprise herself could have been flung by the barrier at FTL back into the galaxy, which makes it unnecessary to place Delta Vega so close to the galaxy's edge.
We hadn't mentioned the Valiant up til now, but I agree that without some outside help it is an otherwise absurd distance for such an early vessel to travel.
After the Enterprise encounters the barrier we do indeed see it flying out at some (possible warp) speed. However, their final position is still a "few light days" from Delta Vega. Even if it is just 3 LDs, at 0.25c that's 12 days travel (or 48 billion miles).

the Romulan Bird of Prey is reduced to sublight impulse power only while cloaked.
Or it is limited to sublight speeds entirely, and those nacelle things are subspace (mass reducing) field generators. After all, there's nothing to say that the BOP wasn't dropped off by some warp capable carrier at the edge of the neutral zone, is there?
 
Or it is limited to sublight speeds entirely, and those nacelle things are subspace (mass reducing) field generators. After all, there's nothing to say that the BOP wasn't dropped off by some warp capable carrier at the edge of the neutral zone, is there?
I was going by Mike McMaster's and company's plans (which are nothing short of brilliant, I think). Those are warp nacelles according to them, and they say that the generators can't supply enough power to operate warp-drive, cloak, and plasma weapon simultaneously. It's a neat interpretation of BoT's dialog, I think.

We hadn't mentioned the Valiant up til now
The Valiant always comes up in these discussions, eventually.... ;)
 
I was going by Mike McMaster's and company's plans (which are nothing short of brilliant, I think). Those are warp nacelles according to them, and they say that the generators can't supply enough power to operate warp-drive, cloak, and plasma weapon simultaneously. It's a neat interpretation of BoT's dialog, I think.
I've seen persuasive arguments for both a FTL chase and a STL chase in Balance Of Terror. As long as the Romulans in general are not limited to STL speeds, I'm happy (although McMaster's solution is undeniably an elegant one).

My favourite scenario is that the Romulan Star empire is confined to a single system with the Earth bases arranged around the perimeter and the BOP an attempt by the Rommies to break out and return to the galactic stage. This scenario fits the dialogue of Balance Of Terror, but everything else has long since been superseded...
 
We really should assume that no such boost was needed, and it's easy to do so. We know the saucer can move at warp (or at least FTL) and cover significant distances that way. Nobody ever told us she couldn't do that all by herself. So assuming that she has perfectly regular warp engines aboard sounds like a no-brainer.
I rewatched "Aresenal of Freedom," LaForge only needs the saucer away from the planet during the battle and achieves that with the short dash away. The giant probe doesn't follow the Enterprise when it runs off, so it would not follow the saucer either outside the particular distance. There is no evidence the saucer actually goes to warp, Geordie only says to head to a particular starbase, nothing more. It takes fewer assumptions for them to expect pickup by tug or for the crew to be offloaded to another vessel.

Or then no sort of a rocket, but instead just this subspace field -manipulating machine. After all, save perhaps for E-nil and E-D, 90% of starship designs place the "nozzle" of this "rocket" so far off the obvious thrust axis that she would only be sent spinning, not moving forward - and the remaining 10% have it placed so that it in fact would blast against the ship's own structures!
Angling the thrust so it lines up with the center of mass would eliminate spin, and it is possible the center of mass is not where one might expect, especially if nacelles hold most of the mass.

The real issue is that some ships do not have obvious impulse engines, which shows the red bits are not even needed. It shows there is no requirement for an exhaust pipe, and that the red bits must serve some useful purpose other than exhaust. That implies some ships are using only warp for everything.

I'm not really against warp only impulse, especially because in the movies they call the impulse factors out by fractional warp factors. Kirk calls out warp 0.5, or some such in one of the initial movies, probably the first one.

Also, there's no correlation between "nozzle" glow and state of flight, suggesting that Uhura had a point in saying that all starships must have a tailpipe. There's some sort of waste coming out of that glowing thing all the time; in TNG, it glows a lot, in TOS-R, it only glows during exceptional peaks of power. But it's not a Newtonian jet.
Ion engines only glow at one apparent level, VASIMR only has two recognizable stages. More or less glow, or lack there off doesn't really mean much.

The closest Uhura would be to right is if all ships use fairly conventional thrusters to turn. However, the D'Deridex lacks recognizable impulse engines and thrusters. Most, or all alien ships lack recognizable maneuvering thrusters.

In DS9, comparable ships do have their impulse glowers lit...
A feature mistakenly added in the TNG "Pegasus" recreation scenes of "These Are the Voyages."

We hear of a breakthrough in sublight propulsion in 2018, and indeed there's a superfast interplanetary spacecraft in VOY "One Little Step", but that one still has prominent rocket engine bells. So the sort of impulse drive that requires no nozzles may be a much later development, perhaps only made possible by the invention of warp.
Possibly, or it was a warp fuel saving measure, or a safety measure having a completely different engine available, but I agree it looks like the glow panel impulse engines we see on the NX-01, and its immediate predecessors do seem like a later development.

It's possible the glow panels are nothing more than perpendicularly placed warp engine grills. The Defiant has its glow bits facing backwards. In part, so does the Galaxy class. The NX impulse engines are blue like the warp grills of the Defiant and Galaxy. The only issue with that is, the nacelles of the Type 15 are definitely the impulse impellers, but it has a glow disk on its back hatch. It might be that what we take to be impulse engines are nothing but aesthetic lighting.

We also hear there that this sort of craft performs much better inside an atmosphere than an impulse-powered contender. In open space, the opposite is true. But is this because of the drive systems, or some other differences in the craft?
At a guess, given impulse engines have to use a warp field, either a static one for mass lightning, or an active one for direct propulsion, either way it would be dragging along a mass of air with it in atmosphere. In Voyager, 7 of 9 mentions that mass effects warp velocity, which means affected air would decrease field performance, and a mass lightened ship would possibly have a tougher time in an atmosphere. The sub-impulse ship would not have those issues.

That could be the real reason the Conastoga class has chemical rocket looking engines, because it has to land, and it might be desirable to have a little more efficiency for that during that time period.

Or it is limited to sublight speeds entirely, and those nacelle things are subspace (mass reducing) field generators. After all, there's nothing to say that the BOP wasn't dropped off by some warp capable carrier at the edge of the neutral zone, is there?
The old Bird of Prey being a battle rider is possible, but we've never seen one before. It fits what we know better for the Romulan ship to be capable of some sort of useful speed on its own despite only having impulse power.

Scotty only says it has impulse power, not that it only has impulse engines, so he was commenting specifically on what he perceived as its maximum output. It stands to reason the Bird of Prey from TOS could break the light barrier, even if minimally, if for no other reason that any sort of war with impulse only would have been futile for the Romulans when facing a warp capable Starfleet. The strategic handicap would have been too much to overcome.

The Romulans would have also been at a tactical disadvantage, going by TOS. When the Enterprise was without warp power, Kirk, or Scotty, describe the ship as a wallowing whale.
 
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The Romulans would have also been at a tactical disadvantage, going by TOS. When the Enterprise was without warp power, Kirk, or Scotty, describe the ship as a wallowing whale.
You may be thinking of this exchange from Elaan of Troyius, when they face the Klingons:

KIRK: They're trying to force a fight. Scotty, what's our energy status?
SCOTT: Ninety three percent of impulse power, sir.
SPOCK: We can still manoeuvre.
SCOTT : Manoeuvre? Aye. We can wallow like a garbage scow against a warp-driven starship. Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.

However, that was a situation where the warp engines were explicitly offline, due to sabotage. If the mass reduction field is indeed generated from the nacelles then it would make sense that the Enterprise could barely manoeuvre, since the thrusters and Impulse Engines are straining to move the full mass of the ship unaided.
 
You may be thinking of this exchange from Elaan of Troyius, when they face the Klingons:



However, that was a situation where the warp engines were explicitly offline, due to sabotage. If the mass reduction field is indeed generated from the nacelles then it would make sense that the Enterprise could barely manoeuvre, since the thrusters and Impulse Engines are straining to move the full mass of the ship unaided.
I'm not the biggest fan of the mass reduction field, especially in the TOS era, but whether there's one or not, I don't believe that this particular aspect of "Elaan of Troyius" that you're talking about is much help, one way or the other.

Warp speed is attained almost instantly. Even if there were a mass-reduction field and it were on, I think that the ship would "wallow like a garbage scow against a warp-driven starship." That would be because it is a mass reduction field and not a mass elimination field. Acceleration would be limited by whatever the smallest positive mass effectively was for the ship under the reduction field and the maximum thrust of the conventional rockets. I'd fully expect any such cap to be exceeded by the warp-capable starship.
 
A mass reduction field is a necessity in Trek, even with sublight engines - there simply isn't enough space on board to contain all the fuel they'd need if the Impulse drive was just a newtonian thrust rocket, even a highly advanced and efficient one.
 
A mass reduction field is a necessity in Trek, even with sublight engines - there simply isn't enough space on board to contain all the fuel they'd need if the Impulse drive was just a newtonian thrust rocket, even a highly advanced and efficient one.

To get the ball rolling, in the case of flying from Alpha Centauri to Sol, Alpha Centauri is flying toward Sol at 20 km/s. On arrival at Sol the ship has to thrust away from Sol in the direction of Alpha Centauri to zero out its velocity. At 1 g acceleration that would take 33 minutes to zero out, but at 2000 g it takes 1 second.

More impressive is "Best of Both Worlds p2." The Enterprise-D drops from warp around Jupiter. I believe in that time period Jupiter is about 42 minutes away from Earth

Time to intercept is 23 minutes 14 seconds (1,394 seconds), and then we see they are in orbit around Jupiter. They intercept near Earth. Using Celestia, the distance between Jupiter and Earth in September 24th, 2367 is 4.25 AU, or 635,790,950 kilometers.

635,790,950 / 1,394 = 456,091 km/s

Speed of light is 299,792 km/s

At a glance the Enterprise-D went twice the speed of light at impulse. However, they experience time dilation at impulse in one of the movies, at least I think they do. If so, then that apparent speed could be the speed from their perspective, or they really did break the light barrier under impulse and impulse engines are not just mass lightening engines, but full blown, low level warp engines.
 
My favourite scenario is that the Romulan Star empire is confined to a single system with the Earth bases arranged around the perimeter and the BOP an attempt by the Rommies to break out and return to the galactic stage. This scenario fits the dialogue of Balance Of Terror, but everything else has long since been superseded...
Unless the Romulan system of TOS is actually a trinary or quaternary system which they they then expanded from later to conquer a larger region (just prior to TNG)
 
No matter how many stars within the Romulan system, it's still just one system, with a small (in galactic terms) neutral zone around it.
For Commodore Stocker to take a "shprt cut" through the RNZ in The Deadly Years, the zone needs to span multiple light years across a significant area of space.
If Romulan space were really just a single star system even that pencil pusher Stocker would have flown around it!
 
It takes fewer assumptions for them to expect pickup by tug or for the crew to be offloaded to another vessel.

Those are all assumptions already. "EaF" shows the saucer capable of respectable warp, so that's the no-assumptions path for explaining what is happening.

Angling the thrust so it lines up with the center of mass would eliminate spin, and it is possible the center of mass is not where one might expect, especially if nacelles hold most of the mass.

The first would mean the ships would fly at funny angles. The only one to ever do so is the only one with the thrust line even approximately reasonably angled - the TOS ship tilting her nose in the opening credits!

The second can't work, because we see multiple designs that defeat any attempt at applying a specific center-of-gravity logic on any single one of them.

The real issue is that some ships do not have obvious impulse engines, which shows the red bits are not even needed. It shows there is no requirement for an exhaust pipe, and that the red bits must serve some useful purpose other than exhaust. That implies some ships are using only warp for everything.

Uhura does say starships need tailpipes. And we see that even the tail of the TOS ship glows red on occasion, removing all obstacles from thinking that every ship indeed has a tailpipe. Although it certainly not be glowing red specifically.

I'm not really against warp only impulse, especially because in the movies they call the impulse factors out by fractional warp factors. Kirk calls out warp 0.5, or some such in one of the initial movies, probably the first one.

That's in ST:TMP only, and Kirk is engaging in the first-ever test of that ship's warp engines. Perhaps that explains the unique procedure?

The closest Uhura would be to right is if all ships use fairly conventional thrusters to turn. However, the D'Deridex lacks recognizable impulse engines and thrusters. Most, or all alien ships lack recognizable maneuvering thrusters.

Huh? Uhura speaks of a tailpipe. Tailpipes serve no propulsive function. They merely remove waste products. So Uhura is highly unlikely to be talking about thrusters, which surely wouldn't serve a tailpipe function.

A feature mistakenly added in the TNG "Pegasus" recreation scenes of "These Are the Voyages."

Just goes to show that the E-D was no exception to the rule.

At a glance the Enterprise-D went twice the speed of light at impulse. However, they experience time dilation at impulse in one of the movies, at least I think they do. If so, then that apparent speed could be the speed from their perspective

The only truly important perspective is that of the Borg - when they can be intercepted vs. when they reach Earth. But giving it in units the E-D heroes will experience certainly makes sense, hence the STL/time dilation model can well be made to work.

However, we're forgetting that we don't really know whether the chase did take place at impulse. Riker orders a deceleration to that speed realm when they reach Sol, but possibly just to get his bearings. The action then moves to the windowless cybernetics laboratory, at which time the ship could again be flying at this oddly low, "Sol-compatible" warp towards Earth, then dropping back to impulse when there's this 2-3 min of ETA remaining.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I imagine the EM drive--if it works, might get pretty hot--thus glowing plates that don't discharge gases. So impulse can go in reverse. The impulse exhaust isn't a rocket--just a way to remove waste heat by glowing.
Explaining why impulse can have a reverse, even thought the impulse drive is "ahead" of the motion.
 
Huh? Uhura speaks of a tailpipe. Tailpipes serve no propulsive function. They merely remove waste products. So Uhura is highly unlikely to be talking about thrusters, which surely wouldn't serve a tailpipe function.
Implying that Uhura knows enough about internal combustion engines and how they actually work to be making a deliberate analogy here? :shrug:

Also, as a colloquialism, "tailpipe" is also sometimes used to refer to the exhaust nozzle of simple rocket engines.
 
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