The Muppets: just what is their deal, anyhow?

[Christopher]

But, yes, I've encountered a few people who thought the Muppets were "selling out" (as the old expression goes) for promoting products for purchase. In (hopefully polite) rebuttal, I tell those individuals about the Wilkins Coffee commercials, some of which date back to 1957.

Although at least those commercials had some subversive humor -- the mascot blowing people away with a cannon if they didn't like Wilkins and then turning the cannon threateningly toward the audience while asking them their coffee preferences. The Muppets have a modern reputation of being cutesy and wholesome, but the truth is that Henson never hesitated to go for black humor. The Muppets under Disney have been rather more domesticated.

 

[martok2112]

But, yes, I've encountered a few people who thought the Muppets were "selling out" (as the old expression goes) for promoting products for purchase. In (hopefully polite) rebuttal, I tell those individuals about the Wilkins Coffee commercials, some of which date back to 1957.

Although at least those commercials had some subversive humor -- the mascot blowing people away with a cannon if they didn't like Wilkins and then turning the cannon threateningly toward the audience while asking them their coffee preferences. The Muppets have a modern reputation of being cutesy and wholesome, but the truth is that Henson never hesitated to go for black humor. The Muppets under Disney have been rather more domesticated.

Oh indeed. . If The Great Muppet Caper were to have been produced and released in today's market, it would've gotten a far more worthy PG rating than the Muppet movies made currently.

 

[Davros]

A Muppet fan covered all the songs of Jesus Christ Superstar in the voices of the Muppets.

I could only imagine Animal's part. Lol

Gonzo as Judas, Kermit as Christ, Fozzy as Peter, Miss Piggy Mary Magdalene, Rolf as Herod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTofJSEdKCs

 

[Marc]

But, yes, I've encountered a few people who thought the Muppets were "selling out" (as the old expression goes) for promoting products for purchase. In (hopefully polite) rebuttal, I tell those individuals about the Wilkins Coffee commercials, some of which date back to 1957.

Although at least those commercials had some subversive humor -- the mascot blowing people away with a cannon if they didn't like Wilkins and then turning the cannon threateningly toward the audience while asking them their coffee preferences. The Muppets have a modern reputation of being cutesy and wholesome, but the truth is that Henson never hesitated to go for black humor. The Muppets under Disney have been rather more domesticated.

I doubt we'd have Crazy (mad?) Harry going around blowing things up for starters as it was the case with original

 

[Tosk]

And regarding CGI, I'm pretty sure Muppets Most Wanted used for Constantine's leaps and dancing.

Nope, only used to remove the puppeteers and rods.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

A Muppet fan covered all the songs of Jesus Christ Superstar in the voices of the Muppets.

I could only imagine Animal's part. Lol

Gonzo as Judas, Kermit as Christ, Fozzy as Peter, Miss Piggy Mary Magdalene, Rolf as Herod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTofJSEdKCs

Camilla and her friends!!!

 

[Gov Kodos]

​

I just this weekend watched Muppets Most Wanted, and I enjoyed it much more the self-congratulatory, self-insert fanficwank that was 2011's The Muppets. I give it a B+. Still, I was left wondering: just what are the Muppets? What is their deal? And what do they want, anyway? Anything apart from being rich and famous and making people happy? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

So, skimming over their Wikipedia article, it seems that The Muppets as a group of puppet characters pretty much originated as entertainers whose variety show hearkened back to vaudeville and sketch programs that were already creaky and going out of style when they started getting big. So they were essentially conceived as a throwback act, making their new Disney-produced material throwbacks to throwbacks. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does raise the question of to what extent contemporary kids will embrace the gang, especially now that at least one generation has grown up on such newer pop-culture riffing franchises as The Simpsons, South Park, Shrek, etc. Sure, none of those are about self-aware entertainers, but the question remains.

It also seems to me that the Muppet-verse, if you will, revolves around The Muppet Show, a TV series that's been off the air since 1981. 1979's The Muppet Movie was essentially a prequel to the show, 2011's The Muppets was about putting on a one-show reunion, and now 2014's Muppets Most Wanted put the revival show on tour, with a story in which most attendees were only there because of bribes - and then the movie itself fizzled at the box office, crushed by a Hunger Games rip-off. (And it didn't even get a thread here on the BBS - ouch. )

So, again, one has to ask: what's the deal with these felt figures? Where are they going as a troupe? I don't see Disney producing a prime-time Muppet Show revival series, nor do I see one-off specials being of much use in keeping the brand going. And, given the tepid performance of Muppets Most Wanted, I'm not sure there's any juice left in the storyline of the fictional show revival that connects both of these reboot movies.

Maybe the best way forward would be to return to the non-Muppet Show story movie template of Muppet Christmas Carol and Muppet Treasure Island. That said, I'm not sure what story they should do next. Maybe something classical - Jason and the Argonauts, the labors of Hercules, that sort of thing? Something Robin Hood or King Arthur-like? A Temple of Doom prequel, starring the great adventurer Gonzo Jones? I admit that while I grew up with an awareness of the Muppets, their only product I ever really connected to was Treasure Island, and while the Muppets are great in that movie, the classic story and incredible Tim Curry performance are just as important.

Another thing that's been nagging at me: I do not care about the Kermit-Piggy relationship. At all. Not one bit. Kermit is great, and Piggy is all well and good in her own way, but in no scene from The Muppet Movie, The Muppets, or Muppets Most Wanted have I ever sensed that he was in any way into her as a romantic partner, and her dogged (pigged?) pursuit of him has therefore never struck me as in any way interesting, let alone funny. Not to be too sensitive about this, but if the genders were reversed there's no way this borderline harassment would persist as a Muppet trope/plot point.

What say you all?

Staler and Waldorf are funnier.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw&list=RDmSvJwUFI_es&index=29[/yt]

 

[bigdaddy]

Everyone from about 25-40 loves the Muppets but they are not popular at all outside of that. I doubt we will get another movie for a very long time. But every few years there is a TV special and they are just a ton of fun!

Plus this is probably the best thing I have ever watched in my life...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN-m6OWVR2c

 

[Gov Kodos]

Everyone from about 25-40 loves the Muppets but they are not popular at all outside of that.

At all? A bit of a sweeping generalization there.

 

[RoJoHen]

While I think 2011's The Muppets was definitely written for the older fans, it was one of those movies that could be enjoyed by all. I saw it opening weekend with my mom and sister (I was home for the holidays), and the theater was sold out and full of little kids.

That said, my mom and I both started tearing up at the end (damn you, Rainbow Connection!), as it appealed to our pre-existing love of the characters. New audiences wouldn't have had that kind of reaction. In fact, my younger sister even made fun of us. "Were you both crying?! At a Muppet movie?"

Shut up. You don't know my life!

I still haven't seen the newest one, though. The trailers didn't really look all that good to me. I'm sure I'll get around to it, though.

 

[Forbin]

I was probably around 20 when the show first hit the air, and I loved it. I'm 57 now, and have the first 3 seasons on DVD, and still love it to death. I wish they'd release more seasons.

 

[Forbin]

Sure, maybe the vaudeville-esque setting of The Muppet Show was a little retro, but it was the framework for one of the most creative and subversive comedies on television.

"Subversive"? As in not just technically innovative (no disrespect to the craft)? Please elaborate.

My first thought is Linda Ronstadt singing "Blue Bayou" perfectly straight on a swamp set littered with little frog muppets going "ribbit, ribbit" to the beat.

 

[mos6507]

The one most important part of the Muppet concept, IMHO, is their absorption with pop-culture. Most Muppet-show skits would put pop-culture into a blender. So yes, it was like SNL or Second City TV, but it was also kind of proto-Shrek-like (ironic, since both Kermit and Shrek are green misfits).

I haven't seen the rebooted (2011 onward) Muppets yet, but I did see some of the prior post-Henson films and found that the lack of Henson's voice destroyed it for me. I don't think Frank Oz is doing any Muppet Voices anymore either.

There's just something truly one-of-a-kind about Jim Henson doing Kermit. Anyone else doing that character, even his son, comes across like an impersonation.

The second most important thing about the Muppets is that, at their best, they represent the power of suspension of disbelief. By establishing a universe in which live-actors accept Muppets as just other people, you're asked to buy into it. You're asked to get as engaged in puppets that have some severe physical limits in their range of motion. That's where it becomes a real performance-art, and if it's not done well enough at every level, then it collapses like a house-of-cards. Jim Henson was on a mission to keep pushing the boundaries of puppeteering, and whether he succeeded or failed, you always could tell in his work that he totally believed in it. That's different from today where the Muppets is a franchise and the studio just issues marching-orders. There's no overarching mission-statement to keep advancing the medium like Henson. And so it's just hard to get that excited about these films because in the end they are retracing over old-ground.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think Frank Oz is doing any Muppet Voices anymore either.

He occasionally reprises his roles for Sesame Street, but for the most part, Oz's characters are now played by Eric Jacobson, except for Cookie Monster, who's now David Rudman.

We also lost Richard Hunt (Scooter, Beaker, Statler, Janice, Sweetums) in 1992 and Jerry Nelson (Floyd, the Count, and many others) in 2004 (to retirement -- he passed away in 2012). Pretty much the only original Muppet Show performers remaining are Dave Goelz and Steve Whitmire -- which is why Gonzo and Rizzo have been so prominent since about The Muppet Christmas Carol onward.

Although the greatest blow other than Henson's loss was the death of head writer Jerry Juhl in 2005. Nothing the Muppets have done since Juhl's loss has really felt authentic, and most of it hasn't been very good.

There's just something truly one-of-a-kind about Jim Henson doing Kermit. Anyone else doing that character, even his son, comes across like an impersonation.

Brian Henson has never done Kermit. The only Jim Henson character that Brian Henson has ever taken over was the Muppet Newsman. He's played Scooter and Janice a couple of times, but most of his characters are ones he originated. Steve Whitmire has played Kermit since 1990.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I just this weekend watched Muppets Most Wanted, and I enjoyed it much more the self-congratulatory, self-insert fanficwank that was 2011's The Muppets.

I definitely agree with this. I appreciate what Jason Siegel was trying to do with The Muppets but it just spend too much time trading on nostalgia for The Muppet Show, rather than just finding a good story and running with it.

I absolutely loved Muppets Most Wanted. It's my favorite movie of the year and my 2nd favorite Muppet movie ever. (The Great Muppet Caper is still number 1!)

Sure, maybe the vaudeville-esque setting of The Muppet Show was a little retro, but it was the framework for one of the most creative and subversive comedies on television.

"Subversive"? As in not just technically innovative (no disrespect to the craft)? Please elaborate.

I'm kinda with you there. To me, "subversive" implies dangerous, as if it's really trying to attack the status quo, like The Smothers Brothers or South Park. The Muppets are more about gently ribbing firmly entrenched members of the pop-culture firmament. I don't think I've ever seen them take on a target with anything but the most loving intentions.

Or maybe a Muppet Superhero movie.

Muppet Die Hard.

I was thinking maybe a western.

Superheroes might be tricky because they're still so relatively fresh & recent. It would smell too much like bandwagon-jumping.

But I love the idea of Muppet Die Hard! I think 26 years is just about the right amount of time for a piece of pop culture to ripen into proper Muppet fodder.

I definitely think the intentional retro-ness of the Muppets is part of what makes them work. Even when they need to add new material, it's new material that's been aged to the point of broad overfamiliarity. Like Muppets Most Wanted doing Soviet gulag jokes that expired 30 years ago or Celine Dion references that would have felt cynically trendy 16 years ago but work just right now.

On the other hand, when you try to make the Muppets trendy, you wind up with an abomination like Muppets from Space, filled with tons of badly dated 1990s music, alien abduction leftovers from the X-Files zeitgeist, and even cameos from Joey & Pacey from Dawson's Creek appearing IN CHARACTER!

Between Muppets in Space and the 2011 film weren't there a few TV specials and youtube music videos?

I'm not sure about the music videos but there were some TV specials that I never really saw (although my mother watched them). I know they did Muppet Wizard of Oz with Miss Piggy as the Wicked Witch, Muppets' Letters to Santa guest starring Jesse L. Martin as a mailman, and It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas, which was your basic It's a Wonderful Life ripoff.

A Muppet fan covered all the songs of Jesus Christ Superstar in the voices of the Muppets.

Oh, sweet Jesus! (Pun intended.)

It did strike me the other day that, IP rights notwithstanding, SNL might be the ideal home to today's Muppets - they could do a sketch or two per ep, enough to keep current and produce regular viral content when particular skits land, but not have the burden of producing full half-hour shows on the own to an audience that might not be willing to watch that much puppet stuff.

I dunno. Apparently, Lorne Michaels still can't say "residuals."

 

[RJDiogenes]

Sure, maybe the vaudeville-esque setting of The Muppet Show was a little retro, but it was the framework for one of the most creative and subversive comedies on television.

"Subversive"? As in not just technically innovative (no disrespect to the craft)? Please elaborate.

My first thought is Linda Ronstadt singing "Blue Bayou" perfectly straight on a swamp set littered with little frog muppets going "ribbit, ribbit" to the beat.

My favorite was Roger Moore kicking the living crap out of a bunch of evil Muppet spies while singing "Talk To The Animals."

 

[martok2112]

One of my favorite Muppet Show eps was the Star Wars one with Mark Hamill, C-3PO and R2-D2. It was released well before The Empire Strikes Back, and revealed one of Luke's outfits from that movie (his Dagobah/Bespin fatigues).... But not just that, but it showcased (a little bit) Hamill's next (probably unbeknownst to him at the time) big calling....voice acting. He did a badass impersonation of Fozzie Bear.

 

[Forbin]

Christopher Reeve in full-out slapstick Vaudeville comedy in an operating room sketch. Genius.

 

[Silvercrest]

My favorite was Roger Moore kicking the living crap out of a bunch of evil Muppet spies while singing "Talk To The Animals."

"A little judo and karate..."

 

[Redfern]

As a kid (well, a teenager) when "the Muppet Show" first aired in the latter 70s, I always hoped Leonard Nimoy would guest star. Silly in retrospect, but as I stated, I was a naive kid at the time. He'd certainly "loosened up" in recent years, but at the time, he was going through his "I am an artiste" phase and would probably seen it as beneath him. But if nothing else, it might have allowed him to have done something a bit beyond audience expectations.

Sincerely,

Bill